Only if you play fast and loose with the definition…
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The issue I have with what you write a lot of the time Sloggers, is that you think books can replace real life experience. people on here have been to China, I have a long lasting relationship experience with the biggest Chinese tech company outside of CM.
We’ve been to China, we have those experiences, hell even living in Sydney gives you a much better understanding of China than even the most well read, never been there person in the UK.
I’m married to an Asian, I speak an Asian language. (not Chinese of course) but you simply have to be closer to where it’s at than here to understand it. It’s like trying to explain to someone what a 30 sec hold down is like in 15C water with someone that has read about surfing in a book.
In my world (not so much now) I am completely immersed in Asian culture and the ramifications. It’s like when a westerner talks about how ‘polite’ the Japanese are. Ask a Korean that’s over 60 about that and see how that conversation goes.
China is a basket case of political posturing. Nobody chooses to be outside of the PRC contract awarding machine.
When I was negotiating the Nexus clauses when it looked like Trump was going for all out ‘war’ with Huawei, we did a complete D2C exercise in Luxembourg on their product and still were lied to, straight our face, in the room, about the nexus quota.
Nothing, and I mean fucking nothing happens at the serious corporate level with ‘head office approval’
Don’t get me started on the ethnic cleansing going. there is fuck all impressive about that, and to compare that shit show with any degree of whataboutism with the UK is laughable. Despite what the certain areas of the press will have you believe, you are living in a bloody utopia in comparison, on any level.
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FatPom I sense your frustration. My words below might come across as a tad harsh, they are not meant to be. They are intended to be explanatory.
Do I?
Ok, I did not know that. I have to work with books as that all I can afford. Had I been in a different life situation I would have spent 3-5 years touring the world, and extended stays in some countries on top. But I’m not so I couldn’t, so haven’t, and make the most of what I can do to learn, from all sides of an issue. And that matters. Understanding the other fellows position, even if you don’t agree with it.
(Edited as I initially misread Fatpoms words here)
I prod, I poke, I question, I think. But all I am doing is trying to lean about a perspective of China I have little access to.
By contrast I am also 100 pages into Ian Williams “Every Breath You Take, China’s New Tyranny.” Which is detailed, to the point, educational covering all the stuff from the first escapee who blew the whistle on the camps in Xinjang, to how book burnings have happened, and how education is strictly controlled from nursery level upwards.
Is it not unreasonable for a man to want to understand better the other mans stance? Hence looking for books by loyal communist party members, beyond Xi Jingpings Governance of China (I am into vol 2).
Given how China is developing I think understanding the other mans position is somewhat important. Even if only for my own education. (Mind you at university I had to read right across the political spectrum).
Not sure I have disputed that. My point is that before you criticise others you should really have your own house in good order first. There is now, from coroners, high quality evidential fact, that our policies have contributed to kill people. And tons of evidence that children go hungry. The scale may be vastly different, but that isn’t the point.
The point is that, before we can criticise others we need to ensure that we have rectified our own similar failings.
FatPom I don’t know if you instinctively reacted, or if my words are conveying a message I don’t intend, but if I really thought I knew it all, why would I be asking for guidance on here?
I don’t think you are asking for guidance. I think you’re trying to convey a point that you’ve read something about a country you’ve never been to, had only two interactions with nationals from that country but somehow have a unique insight into that those that frankly have a shed load of IRL experience with the place.
sorry, I really screwed up the multi-quoting. I’ve bolded my bits.
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FatPom
I think we are going to have to disagree on what you think here. But I will reflect on your words.
I will stop in the interests of harmony. Peace.
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I’ve been coming to China since 2003 and have lived in Shanghai now for 7 years. Whilst certainly not fluent, I speak the language to a reasonable level and I honestly have no real idea what the Chinese think about their own government. As a foreigner here you know not to discuss anything about the 3 T’s (Tibet, Tianamen & Taiwan) and to be honest that extends to politics in general. Those sorts of conversations don’t happen - at least not when I’m around. What I do know is that living standards have improved immeasurably for the overwhelming majority of people over the last 2 decades.
Shanghai is a very cosmopolitan city and certainly not representative of the rest of China. Most of the Chinese I interact with on a daily basis are generally well educated, many have studied abroad and are perhaps better informed than most but I get the distinct impression that they really aren’t interested in politics. I’m sure in the 2nd & 3rd tier cities people are a lot more nationalistic. Attitudes here are a lot more pragmatic.
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deary me…how did i miss this before…???
AndyM
From what you describe I think that I will really struggle to find the sort of book I am looking for. Exiles et all on China is easy enough, but about the only books that I can easily find by a party member are Xi Jingpings, which I am working through. It would just be nice to read something by a lower level loyal party member. The other ordinary mans perspective of life.
Thanks for posting.
Ok I have reflected FatPom.
To simplify (perhaps too much)…
You think (and correct me if I am wrong) that I think that I know more that those who have been there done that and got the t shirt.
That is incorrect. I don’t. I think that I have done the best I can from the resources available to me.
But, I do think that a detailed review of my internet history since the millennium (and some in person stuff that should be verifiable) will show that regularly (and importantly in areas that I can connect with) I have been months to several years ahead of conventional wisdom.
And I will admit that nowadays my ego loves it when the Economist writes about stuff that I could have written months prior (though I accept that they probably seek multiple verifications etc). I once, a long time ago now even contacted the Economist asking them to ‘up their game’ as I was tired of reading stuff I already knew. Though mostly I learn a great deal from the Economist.
It’s a bit academic nowadays as after two decades of being ridiculed and taking grief in a wide range is areas, I have thrown in the towel. Given the resources I have I am happy to continue quietly and just gain occasional moments of pleasure, as opposed to hoping someone will spot the potential benefits. Especially since the only people who have shown any visible interests in my skillsets are foreign nations.
Besides if I can formulate theories on how to find subs, identify potential terrorist attacks, ways to make weapons useless (that’s very theoretical and in the realms of phd scientists which I am not) etc then better people than me, with funding, are probably way ahead of me.
I already know that I have done enough for my lifetime (in terms of higher purpose), so in my remaining months (if I can’t fight an infection) or years (till my incurable cancer takes me), I am just looking at what really interests me, at the moment getting back into Antarctica and Oceanography, while challenging myself in maths and trying not to lose my hopeless French, and obviously political analysis.
Anyhow, though that I should respond after reflecting on your thoughts FatPom.
Thank you AndyG.
Funnily enough I have just finished a similar just published book, “Every Breath You Take - China’s New Tyranny” by Ian Williams.
This starts with the account of a nursery teacher who was taken to teach in a camp. She comforted an old lady and spent two days being beaten and starved for her trouble. She fled the country.
It’s a good book, though the knowledge in it obviously covers a lot of what you would have read in the Economist over the years (no wonder the Economist is I believe banned in China).
My next China read is a historic one, Kissinger’s on China that has been sitting on my shelf for months.
As an aside when you read Xi Jingpings “The Governance of China” there is little to disagree with. In Vol 2 eg I learnt that it is forbidden to mention western ideas in Party schools, which I find odd as a Brit. But 99% of the books could be written for any nation seeking a better governed society. When you boil it down: work hard, don’t be corrupt; supervise well; don’t just go through the motions; visit as much as possible to help comprehension (assuming vip set up days don’t happen like in the nhs per U.K. doctors reports); don’t fall for money, desire for power and sex (our MPs could learn from that); etc.
I realise that those books are crafted for us, and don’t contain the critical stuff that allegedly is in the Chinese versions, but they do genuinely appear to be about good governance. Maybe, for all the negatives, Xi Jingping really does want a better society, though I accept the on the ground reality seems, to western eyes, to portray a very different picture. But then you get into factors like internal resistance, organisational change, cliques, and specific policies that are alien to westerners (like no mention of western ideas, what is happening in xinjang, social credits etc etc.)
Don’t get me wrong, I would last five minutes flat as a Chinese citizen, but there is wisdom in Xi Jingping’s books (eg don’t be corrupted by power, money or sex) that our politicians could learn from.
Hence my interest in what a normal loyal party member thinks, if I can ever find an English version of such a book.
Mutual understanding goes a long way, and you don’t get that just by reading about the negatives. Sadly it seems that the only Chinese who now have a chance to understand us in the West are those who have spent time here. And they seem to be under the control of the embassy nowadays (eg hassling Hong Kongers at our universities, influencing syllabuses etc, which places our universities between a rock and a hard place given their funding).
It’s just fascinating, and as Ian Williams wrote in Britain we seem from Cameron days to today, to be somewhat naieve and greed focused, when dealing with China.
OK, you really must be just posting this sort of stuff to wind people up.
Don’t be corrupted by power?
From the man who removed the two term limit and is now effectively China’s leader for life?
Our politicians should learn what from that exactly?
Boris or Corbyn for life?
{Shudders}
FFS!
Thankfully, I’ve got other/better things to do today.
Cheers, Paul. 
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No, I am openly brainstorming.
Indeed, then history has shown that doesn’t work. Far to much opportunity for the natural aging degregation, brown noseing yes men, and people being scared to tell the truth to power.
However, so far, that isn’t something I have read in his Governance of China books, which I am trying to read objectively. Naievely some may say, but equally I am reading plenty contra in eg Economist and Ian Williams new book.
God forbid. No precisely as I wrote, no more and no less. Don’t be corrupted by the desire for power, money or sex.
Are you suggesting that our MPs aren’t corrupted by these things?
Re Boris (who, like Cameron, believe it or not I like, if not his actions) and Corbin, I agree.
Yet, how many times have you said you won’t interact with me anymore, I have lost count. Yet you still do. I recommend the inner work I previously explained to you.
Having just received a long and detailed pm from a forum member, which I won’t disclose. It seems that I have really upset them, for which I publicly apologise. Forgot to put that in my response. Sorry.
Given the extent of the email, and I assume honest opinions about me, even I can see that I am unintentionally causing pain to at least one forum member in all sorts of ways.
So I will take a sabbatical. In the interests of harmony.
While I have been working hard over two decades to do what little I can, it seems that I remain a laughing stock and grief taker. Life is simply too short.
As promised in my response I will reflect upon your words even though you believe incorrectly I do no such thing.
Peace.
If the moderators have any way to block my account for say a year, please do. If not I will read but try not to post. I have a copy of the email to refer to from time to time as I reflect.
I don’t think either of you should get so wound up about this. This forum should be all about open discussion with the maturity of both parties to not denigrate each other vis a vis Twitter rows and subsequent abuse. That’s not what this place is about. It’s supportive and I hope you can work it out. Even if someone feels passionately about a subject - clearly here - you should be able to argue with objectivity and not reduce oneself to threatening or abusive language - c’mon we’re all better than that. Since I’ve joined I’ve become a better person. Peace out brothers 
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How is CCP membership to further your career, any different from MPs voting with the Whip every time for the same reason?!
I don’t know about provoking debate, but you seem to be blowing about like a kite in the wind on this; contradicting your assertions routinely when challenged. You should have been a politician!
I’d recommend Mr. China by Tim Clissold. It’s not what the OP asked for but a good read on doing business in China. It is, however, 20/30 years old.
Whatever about the government the people aren’t as rude as suggested by others here. I’ve spent a lot of time over there and they can be great company and genuinely good people. Same as anywhere else. And I was not someone important that they needed to suck up to. Of course some of their behaviour will come across as rude. I’d cut them some slack as they pretty much have to be cutthroat given the intense competition with 1.5bn other people.
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says Sloggers…
Hardly a shock but I wonder if we’ll continue to cosy up with them while this goes on in the background and then hit the panic button in the same way as we’ve done with Russia should they try and take Taiwan, they hardly stuck to their promises in HK.
I’m fairly sure the US, UK and other allies aren’t entirely clean and that it will be hard to wean ourselves off China’s cheap labour and financial backing.
China: MI5 and FBI heads warn of ‘immense’ threat - BBC News
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FTFY
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