I hear ya there, it is super annoying.
I’m not gonna be going to Austria, Barcelona, Copenhagen or anywhere foreign to do it.
I really did not enjoy Mallorca, just found it all mega stressful.
So it’s Outlaw for me, as the distances are super accurate, just need them to go back to the original transitions; as the current one is utterly obscene.
@fruit_thief - I just scraped Endurance Data instead of that sheet, as the swim times haven’t been formatted correctly
I have only looked at sub-10 and also removed the MPRO, FPRO and RELAY categories.
Which gives me this:
Basically showing that it’s skewed towards bike times (NSS!)
If you are swimming 75 minutes, you’re gonna need to be 5:05 on the bike and 3:20 on the run, with 10mins in transition.
Ideally, you need to be aiming for a 5:10 bike after an hour of swimming, heading out on run with 6:20 on the clock (I’ve been out at 6:30 four times now - for me, 3:30 just isn’t enough time, but 3:40 seems achievable)
You should be targetting a 3:20 run off the bike, to come home in 9:40, which marries up with what @Jorgan always tells us…you need to be in 9:40 shape to do a sub-10.
Yes, my bike was never quite there; I was always a decent swim/runner, but couldn’t bring it all together with a genuinely strong bike. Which ended-up with 3x 10:0* finishes and a load in the mid 10s.
I just give up mentally on the run.
It hurts. And I CBA.
I’m going all IMJ here, but the support on the Staffs run course was immense and really made me want to run and not walk, even though the cramp was insane.
Just need that all around the regatta lake, then out to the Embankment
Outlaw is a LONELY run course (well, and bike course)
I reckon I’d like the Barcelona run course (six times up and down a 7km promenade)
Dunno; Barcelona run looked boring tbh. Not sure there was much shade either.
Hamburg & Austria are the best run courses I’ve done; and the hitherto IM Regensburg. Plenty of shade & support on all of them, especially Hamburg on a sunny day, which brings the casual supporters out too.
I love running next to the City Ground as I lost my best mate 20 years ago and he was a mad Forest fan. That section of the run brings back joyful memories of him and gets me a bit emosh.
On topic though, this is something I have been thinking about a fair bit. Whchever way you cut the time up to suit your strengths, where do guys think these planned/goal efforts need to be? Not just in relation to FTP or straight marathon times but physiologically.
I’ll have a stab. IM effort/LT1 = Min requirement for sub 10 2.7w/kg bike, 5 min/km. No idea on swim physiology except need to be out 1.05 as above or have a strength to offset.
I’m not really sure what you by “physiologically”?
Swim needs to feel like a warm up. Like easy.
That’s why I swam 4km so much last year.
Just dial in that pace until it’s easy. 4km in 65mins is ~1hr for 3.8km.
Bike? It’s easy all the way.
Ride like you’re riding to the start of a marathon.
Nice and easy and relaxed. Never breathless.
It is utterly mundane and very boring.
Run? Jog the first 32km like you’re going to the start of a 10km race. Take some walk breaks, keep fresh, get some nutrition on board, keep loose, don’t go too fast.
When you arrive at the start of the 10km race, just run!
…and course dependent (roads/elevation)…and even pacing lines can be faster without drafting. Although I think the draft zone is bigger than what is was when I did most of my IMs? Is it 12m now, up from 10m, which is another bike length.
This is what I was getting at. As @buzz suggests IM pace is often presented as percentage of threshold be that CSS, FTP or 10km but that relies on those numbers being accurately tested. It’s worth noting that threshold is often suggested bieng at LT2 but is more often above that.
As @Jorgan states race conditions like heat have to be factored in. No point going at at % of 10km pace in 30C when your 10km was on dreary 16C in Yorkshire is there?
I think @Bosco64 is right in that IM effort should be LT1 and if you’re good at being objective with yourself using VT1 as surrogate works. Knowing this value and working to increase that and not FTP or 10km pace must be goal for IM training? (just thinking out loud not telling you all how to train)
Swim: I have no idea. I wouldn’t do a 1.5km TT as they’re too hard. I’d guess around 22-23mins. As my pace doesn’t waver from 400m - 1900m I do 1.9km TTs, then take my 1.5km from that. And just swim 4km a lot
I was 6th in my AG out of the water at IMUK last year.
And I had a terrible swim.
And I’m not a swimmer.
Bike: 3.2W/kg
Run:
Outlaw 2021 - 38:15 as part of our aerobic 10km challenge thing (failed on the run)
Outlaw 2019 - 36:34 10km time a few weeks before. Ran a 3:23 that day (but no bike ride!)
Outlaw 2012 - 35:55 10km time, a few 5:00.01 - 5:06 mile races, too.
3:48 marathon that day
Outlaw 2011 - no 10km times. But a 17:57 5km and a 3:27:51 29.3 mile race (marathon + 5km)
3:47 marathon that day
Outlaw 2010 - 35:01 10km time, 17:07 5km time
3:53 marathon that day.
Running a good IM marathon has nothing to do with threshold running whatsoever. IT. IS. ALL. ABOUT. THE. BIKE.
There is no such thing as a dreary day in Yorkshire.
Lancashire get all of them.
Yorkshire is bathed in the light of His glory. #GodsOwnCounty
All of this LT1/VT /FTP etc is a nonsense for the most part for a sub-10 IM.
It’s an aerobic event.
I honestly believe that all other numbers thrown at it are trivial.
I barely looked at my PM at IMUK and Outlaw.
I know both courses extremely well and had ridden to a power value I’d assigned myself in training. Absolutely dialling it in. I quite enjoyed Bolton, even in the rain, with three punctures and a DNF.
2010-2012 Outlaw - My position and aero wasn’t great on the bike and I always needed the loo. I also hared off on the run to “bank” time as I was young and naive.
My running and swimming were far better than my cycling.
But you don’t need to be a good runner to have a decent IM run. You need that cycling ability to be able to execute an average jog.
In 2012, I was running with someone and chatting, but “let him go” when I needed the aid station. I never caught back up with him and he ran a 3:38 and got a 9:58 - smack bang where I wanted to be.
So I think at times, you’ve also got to “race” it a little bit as well.
Is it though? Or is that just a ‘safe’ way to approach. Are the pros (not always a good comparison I know) riding easy the whole way?
If you train to operate at a higher percentage of your ‘threshold’ then surely you can perform in a race? If you have the strength and stamina to run well tired, then you can go harder on the bike.
As said above, a 3.30 mara is 5/km pace. Nearly all sub 10 (or hopeful) athletes will be able to run, much, much faster than that. So it shouldn’t be ‘that’ hard.
Caveat - I have no empirical evidence here, and maybe I’m biased as a stronger runner in comparison to the other 2. But I do still challenge that assumption if you’re willing to be in the hurt locker for most of the run.
That’s not how it works though, 'cos you don’t know what training benefits will deliver you changes at those intensities, 'cos you don’t know what is limiting you at those intensities. If you’re going to be thinking about optimising individual things, you need to look at what adaptations provide most return at the intensity you want to optimise for, and then what training provides the biggest benefit to those adaptations (and of course this only comes after getting all these easy adaptations by a few years of regular training of all adaptations)
