Well the number of times I keep getting the advert they’ll make me 10s/100m faster (or my money back) makes me want to see them try.
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As a test protocol I think it’s flawed, it massively overinflates the speed you can hold at LT2. I’m also not sure basing any plan around a % of LT2 (even if measured accurately) is useful because you need to work at various intensities and speeds. The Swimsmooth sets CSS +5 etc are far too regimented to work in the real world especially with triathletes who (massive generalisation time) will struggle to hit perfect timed reps due to turns and fatigue causing form to drop off considerably. I have seen that the later you get in a set then you will get them swimming with effort well above threshold as form slips, just to hold CSS time.
Personally I’ve used 7x200 step test , although more as an RPE/HR measure. You really should be doing blood lactate testing with that also. More simplistic Maglischos 10x100 to get a generic turnaround time works well.
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Thanks.
I don’t think I’ve ever used it, and hadn’t heard of it before starting triathlon. But I have agreed with some of their principals for type of sets, eg 10x200 ‘threshold’ 20s rest which I have used as a benchmark set the past few years. But effort based on feel, acquired through years of swimming. In theory a test set would be useful to help novice swimmers have some guide and target on what to aim for on certain sessions, and like that you’ve suggested better options.
We did Bill Sweetman 7x200 step test about every 8-10 weeks in my swim club, but more as a marker of progress/confidence build more than setting training based on it. Can’t imagine a triathlete being happy to be doing 7x200s with more rest time than swim time though 
We generally just used simple prescription of RPE which I still think trumps all.
Can back up with HR (or power expanding towards cycling). As kids we were set HR caps more to stop us overworking easy days (eg 50 beats below max) and hard target times based on race paces.
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Adding this for context, as was looking for how you used the test to set training paces.
Out of interest, your protocol above is bit different to what I’ve seen now on a quick Maglischo google, which suggests the 10x100 as 3x 3x100, 200 recovery every 3, descending pace, with a final one max effort.
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And that quote is a reminder that the first few months of this thread were really useful IIRC. 2000 comments is a lot to read through, and think for a while in the middle this thread just became a training thread, but it has had some great discussion/advice along the way.
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The BBM method is more as a guide for me as swimmers understand it, 50 BBM recovery 40, aerobic 30 ~LT2 etc. Again the accuracy of any test is only as good as the protocol used, and things like rest, warm up, fatigue going into it, all have ramifications , and in a club environment even more variable. Knowing LT2 is useful for any athlete but a decent test set to measure progress is good enough for most, ie step test or the simple 10x100 off 10 maglischo test . In swimming its far easier than tri as testing is done whenever there is an open gala though so not as necessary in training.
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10x100swimtestprotocol.pdf (138.0 KB)
This is the true Maglischo test and instructions , mine is a variation which Maglischo used to work out cruise intervals…extract in this link from Swim Fastest
Agree with all that. The comment on the parameters affecting a ‘special test’ mean get as much/more benefit from just repeating some training sessions as marker’s of progress
Another thought:
For swimmers (with benefit of coaches on poolside) most hard sessions they learn to judge pace by knowing if they completed the session. If you can’t hold even pace or descend as planned then you mispaced and need to correct next time.
BUT that relies on the session being appropriately set to achieve the goal, which is hard for self-coaches athletes who will question the session and their pacing, and not know which variable to change.
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Thanks. That’s what I’d read through as first google result after you posted, and liked it as a test protocol, but then wondered how you set training paces based off it.
Then the 5th google result brought me back to your TT post from 2019.
Just to clarify, let’s say someone does 10x100 and hits 1:30 on every one. 10s rest making 1:40 average. I assume you then add 10s to the overall running time to get a training turnaround time of 1:41, rather than adding 10s to the 1:40 to get 1:50?
Cant decide if I think 1:41 turnaround is too quick for that athlete, to try and hold 1:35s on longer sets, or if they should aim to hold 1:40s and go off 1:50s which seems way too easy. Think I’d like them to go off 1:45
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So running clock with 10secs rest , the divide by 10 is your off time so say you’ve done them total time is 900seconds your off time is 90, so you’d hold 80 for “cruise” or 70 for a stretch, vary distances so could be 50s off 45 holding 35 as a good set to train tge body to go a bit faster (1.10 /100 is ~ triathlon performance benchmark)
I got those very figures with a youth triathlete of 14 and example set we did a pyramid (all off 45s,90s,3m,4m30s) 50,100,200,300 with a bit of pace variation, aim for 35 on 50s , 1.20 on 100, 2.45 off 200 and 4.15 for 300
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One thing to remember as well, when coaching young triathletes, my goal with the performance squad is to get them swimming 200 or 400 at 2.20 or 4.40 minimum from a wall SCM (and then aim for it to not be flat out)
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But if their total time is 900s they’ve just averaged 80s for 10x100 maximum effort off 90. How can they now hold 80s as ‘cruise’? Or 70s for more than one or two 100s without completely blowing?
That’s the bit I don’t get from the test. I’m probably just misreading somewhere, but think important for us to clarify for others who may want a test protocol to replace CSS, given that’s what we’re criticising.
Yep I like. I talk a lot about holding even pace as increase distances as a technique for ironman pacing, but I do like the role of variable pace to make it even effort as you describe. Especially with mixing up ascending-descending, to know can have easy front end speed, and still finish fast after longer intervals 300s to know you’re not more tired than you think.
Think every person on here also wishes they could do that 
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I think thats the point for me, it’s 10x100 at that time so you’d build reps. It’s not really a “CSS replacement” but another way to skin the cat and simple to do with a group of triathletes. CSS, SS do this 400/200 test then set sessions like 16x100 off 10secs RI holding that pace, if you’ve tested that properly thats some achievement if you manage it, especially all at LT2 (which they won’t hence my feeling it is flawed) take your 400/200 times , you’ll see closer (using SS protocol but im sure you could guess them accurately) . The first 8 x 100 are OK, after that it’s literally muscling your way through with every diminishing form. Totally Counterproductive.
I completely agree that most go out too fast in hard sessions and can’t hold for long enough, both between and within reps (eg doing 200s and getting slower every 50m, and each 200m getting slower).
And that’s despite the irony that lots don’t do hard enough sessions.
What I’d still like to clarify is my misunderstanding around a better testing protocol to help guide people who can’t use feel.
- 10x100 best effort across the 10x100,
- 10s rest between each, keep a running clock
- a better test set so far, and pretty much same as my use of 10x200 20s rest.
- what I haven’t got my head around is the prediction of threshold turnaround time by dividing total time by 10. That just brings us back in a circle to the pace someone can do for 10x100 Max effort with 10s rest, which is probably a fair bit faster than the pace they can hold for longer threshold sets like 6x400?
Then I got confused by your suggestion your athlete can cruise at the same pace they held for those 10x100 max, or go 10s faster per 100m?
Using an example if I did 10x100 best effort with 10s rest I’d probably average around 1:13 in current 50m pool. I could probably only do 1x 1:03 100m, and unlikely to hold 4:50s for 400s off 5:30.
Really appreciative of your time/responses here 
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I can see the confusion, I’m not being very clear! Let me dig out my Maglishco and photo the pages at some point. Its a protocol I basically got from there as it seemed useful and in real world scenarios has worked well. So it’s not really an accurate estimate of threshold, more a way for me to set good turnaround times for aerobic intervals and to keep lanes working together without the guy at the back going anaerobic and guy at front going easy (in a 3 lane squad I’d typically round up as per Maglischo to the nearest 5 second and then have lanes off 1:20/1:25/1:30 for instance). The “cruise” is basically set a main set of say ~20mins - 30mins, you say swim, making turnaround as easy as you can, they may do it with 5-10seconds rest, it’s still aerobic. I could set approximately a 15minute swim and say best sustainable effort though, this will be high level aerobic so around/above threshold but still utilising the aerobic system largely. I also generally use this for remote athletes to keep it simple (as simple is usually best) , most have Garmin so i say turn on watch do session turn it off and I can tell rather than relying on a complex WU/ recovery strategy to the CSS test which is badly estimating LT2. So bottom line scientifically it is flawed like most tests, but its much easier for a squad and Ive found it works well enough for athletes Im not poolside with.
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Very similar times to mine, did 400 & 200 TT’s last Tuesday for CSS pace & got 6:27.5 & 3:11).
And yeah some pools are just faster than others + temps as others have said.
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Interesting conversation @Chriswim & @Hammerer. I don’t use CSS as I found it impractical as it was way too fast for me to hold. For triathlon purposes wouldn’t a longer TT make sense? At least for pacing longer reps?
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Why do people use a swim nappy, buoy and still try to kick, usually from the knee 
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Try a T20 or 1k TT as a reasonable marker of aerobic fitness
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Thought I would update here rather than clog up the swim advice thread.
Still working on DPS and in reality still to get back into the routine of x3 morning swims a week. But shortly before Christmas I was doing a steady aerobic session and did 400m rep just 6s slower than my fastest ever 400m and I was fit when I did that. Still working on getting the strokes down wile at 54 SPM. I would be further on with this but struggled with everything in Oct & Nov so didn’t swim much.
Once back into routine I will add a weekend masters session.
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