but the problem with encouraging a higher stroke rate is that most* triathletes already have little or no engagement with the water…as is the norm, they take in the high sr guidance because it is easier to fix then the rest, resulting in more flailing and even less efficiency…
(*certainly many, but probably most).
Shoulder mobility is an issue for me, I have no AC ligaments in either shoulder, so shoulder is just supported by muscle, which I think reduces flexibility.
I am not sure that my ankles are terribly flexible either
It depends, Just about every AOS male I have seen in the tri clubs have a very low stroke rate as they try too hard to get their technique “perfect”. We are talking 45 - 55spm. I do low SR work a bit in off season and try to hold the DPS as we up it approaching season. I like to try to promote 70+ for athletes long term, but many males are knackered after a length or two trying to do 60, its a key limiter and part of “technique” for me. Far too much fine tuning of strokes going on too often and forgetting that with a low SR you are essentially gliding at the end of each stroke so “pumping the accelerator” rather than “continuous swimming” , or swimming at a steady speed which adds not only tiem but fatigue.
I’d also add that in my experiences with regard to “technique”, many misinterpret that to doing drills, but technique can be a constant in a session just with focussed swimming. Also that means you will be doing more actual swimming in the sessions. Swimming is a whole body experience; its all interlinked. (one of the reasons I like Solars 0 - full is its like actual swimming and it is still the main/only drill I regularly use, even in groups). Breaking it down can be useful at some times for some athletes if the correct drill is used for a good reason, but too many watch a swimsmooth video, blindly throw a load of drills in (club sessions notorious for this) as its what they should do, and end up getting maybe 1 -1.5k main set only. Ironman is 3.8km and with the best technique in the world over 400m , that will soon drop off when you get 1500m into the swim.
tl;dr Whilst technique is important, drills arent the only way to sort that, stroke rate is too low in most AOS males and key limiter, get more yards of actual swimming in sessions, swim as many times a week as you can. Oh and do 0 - full drill lots
unless you have some engagement with the water, increasing sr leads to rushing an already poor catch leading to engaging less…
if you don’t have traction and you increase the revs, you just get less traction for the effort
correct…
What drill is this? Never heard of it & Google gives nothing.
Thank you all. I have nothing to contribute except how much this thread is helping me and this ‘dose of reality’ is my weakness - I keep reading about how to improve my swimming without actually swimming! I need to let go of the ‘ silver bullet’ solution and just do some work……
0 arm drill, followed by single arm L , single arm R into full stroke (breathe every 3)
0-Full
NAD
Dryland NAD just for giggles (and because i showed it on my L3 as my “inspirational coaching video” and now its widely used by a few on the course to get people engaged and thinking about timing)
yes but that’s why stroke counting is so important so you dont lose the current DPS, its a controlled increase in SR, not just throwing the arms over faster. A key problem with the low rates is not that the arms just turn over slower, its that the arms are held out front too long (usually when breathing) meaning the elbow drops and they then don’t catch effectively anyway. This then also causes issues in with balance and then you get the scissor kick. 60 is not even a high SR but there are very few AOS that even get close to that and it does lead to other issues
I’ll give that ago but think the NAD will be especially challenging with one leg. I’m fine with the single arm drill breathing to the recovery side like shown in your example but struggle breathing to the non recovery side as in the UNCO videos although I think they use fins for it.
Exactly what I am working on right now. Increasing stroke rate, my stroke rate at moderate effort is about 54-55 ATM but working at nudging up to 56 SPM. I am trying to make sure I don’t just let the water slip as I get to the latter part of the set. Once I can improve DPS and speed across the set, at this rate, I will then gradually increase it.
ETA: I have avoided working on this properly before because it has me blowing out my arse quickly.
i didnt want to be “that guy” and point it out 
. It’s very challenging even for good swimmers, but it’s one of those drills that even done badly it helps as you gradually find ways to improve the more you do. its a good drill to do alone without feedback for that reason
As @Hammerer says on this drill “Don’t think, feel. It’s like a finger point to the end of the pool. Don’t concentrate on the finger or you’ll miss all the heavenly water”.
i am not adverse higher sr in principle…
however…there is an energy cost to each stroke…for the energy crunched triathlete there has to be a return for this investment…
the fast athletes with high sr have all the other factors like engagement, balance, flexibility and relaxation all in place…
many athletes simply don’t have this and nor do they have the time or patience to fix it and nor do they have the necessary coaching to fix it…
if the stroke timing is correct then the duration out front should be related to the rest of the mechanics…
‘usually when breathing’ is not specifically a symptom of sr, but a symptom of other aspects of stroke mechanics…
yes, the longer the arm is out, there is more time for the elbow to drop, but his again is the mechanics of the stroke and not specifically a symptom of a low sr
elbow drop doesn’t necessarily cause an imbalance, the swimmer could be perfectly balanced and still have low elbow catch initiation…and scissor kick is potentially a symptom of a whole host of mechanics…
other than that…
Oi @joex stop whining about injuries and get swimming again 
I guess ill have to pop along on s Thursday when i get over this chest and get wet rather than stand poolside. Im worried you will show me up though
Ahem
Was in the office yesterday, every call I was on today people told me I was worse than yesterday so… I did a half hour run and an hour on the bike at 70.3 pace.
I just though an hour swim tonight as well would be pushing it
Just saw this.
Je…wha….when did I become the back marker for performance!?* 
You got me to my fastest paces, don’t think I’m at that again yet.
The focus on fins while my shoulder was fucked I think has transformed my kick though.
*When I registered, I know
Gwen Jorgensen how they train podcast:
Q: What made the difference, was it just going to the pool 6x a week or the actual content of those swims in making you be able to always hit the front pack?
A: a combo, but I largely put it down to just the consistency.
It’s a strange world…
My 10 year old lad did a development squad gala yesterday.
I was astounded how well he went in the fly, which he won despite the fact it was the first time he’d raced on Fly and he only started swimming it about 5 months ago (I taught him to swim and I never really bothered with Fly as I have never been much good at it). He also won the Back and came second in the Breast, his worst event. I was elated as he only had the Free to come, his best event, and so he’d have won three races and come second in the other, which would have made him indisputably the best swimmer in the development squad. The only negative was that I was unable to video any of it (“no cameras”), which rather upset me…
Then the world caved in.
He reported to the coach that he felt sick and couldn’t swim the Free…
I could not understand it as he’d just knocked over 10 seconds of his (admittedly soft) Breast PB, yet he was adamant he worked really hard in the Breast and it made him feel sick and short of breath. I started wondering if it was nerves or something, plus he has got a bit of cold, but how could it be either when he’d already swum 3X, done brilliantly, his best event was coming up and he was almost a banker to win it ?
Was my lad a choker ? What would the coach think (though to be fair he didn’t seem that phased) ?
I didn’t push him to do the free, it didn’t seem the right thing to do, but it ruined the event for me. It’s the old story, like if one’s under fancied team scores early in a game but the other team equalises in the last few seconds then a result which you’d have taken at the start suddenly seems really disappointing !
I have been quite worried about it (what time am I writing this…), but it’s just hit me !
He had loads of sweets just over an hour before the gala. I wasn’t happy about it at the time but it’s part of his rewards for going training (we did a starts turns and finishes session that morning) and I persuaded myself it’d be alright, “he’s only doing 50s” I thought.
Is there any chance that the “insulin resistance” finally hit home in a big way (though by then it was just over two hours later) ?
This sounds more likely than insulin related issues, although yes his nausea etc could be contributed by the amount of sugar.
Reminds me of a time I competed age 14.
2x PBs in the Sat morning session, I pulled out the rest of the comp at lunchtime feeling unwell. Would have been near nailed on for £200 winnings, a LOT for a 14 year old! Got criticised by coach, spent the next 48 hours out of it with fevers, drenching sweats and resp symptoms. Diagnosed pneumonia Monday morning.
Not a scare story, My point being the PBs don’t discount him just having a bit of an illness.