And there ends my lesson 
I will add the reason for doing 50s was so you held form and didnt fatigue as quickly. Try 100s and you may tire quicker but it’s a work in progress and the goal is always swim short reps at target pace and stroke rate, then build your ability to hold it for longer
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How do you know how many SPM you’re doing, though?
If I manage to increase cadence to 70SPM and hold 18SPL, then I’d be repping the 50s in 31 seconds 
Even at 60SPM, maintaining 18SPL, that drops my 50 time down to 36 seconds.
Current 50s, I’m more like 19SPL at a cadence of 55SPM.
So if I add a couple of extra strokes per minute, I’d knock off a second or two?
This has blown my mind
EDIT: watched Peaty swim a 58s WR. I couldn’t even see his arms 
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I use s tempo trainer a lot to up the kids sr, but its sparingly as it can disrupt turns and can lead to sloppiness on the breakout as they try to get back kn the beep. Useful tool though.
yep, i’ve got a tempo trainer… normally only use it to time CSS sets, and never really paid any attention to cadence… will be doing now!
But it’s not a mathematical problem; otherwise I would be swimming under 60s for a 100. It’s a (complicated) combination of technique & fitness.
I’ve been chewng this same point over… my theory (and it is only the theory of someone who doesn’t know what he’s talking about), is that as i’ve developed my swim technique over the last few years, i’ve naturally/unconsciously slowed my stroke rate in order to focus on getting it right… and now i’ve got the swim fitness and strength in a better place, i’ve just forgotten the importance of bumping that stroke rate back up, which I can do to a certain extent without too much in the way of a hit… might be wrong, but I was certainly quicker at higher spm, without really denting my spl. 
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Yes. I understand the last part, what I’d previously not thought of was the maths bit.
Like @magnacarter, and I guess many others, I’ve been working on reducing my SPL, without giving SPM a second thought.
So, whilst I’m now a bit quicker for less strokes, I now need to add those missing strokes back in and maintain the technique.
Far too much to think about
I’m going swimming in an hour or so, to give some things a try
I guess the point is, if you increase your SPM, you probably aren’t going to get the same DPS you did when you swam at a lower cadence - which is why the ‘sums’ don’t lead to the massive speed gainz you might think.
I think you have to be really careful with SPL as the danger is you get into a false over gliding situation just to get the number down and congratulate yourself on being Michael Phelps.
SPL & SPM must always be viewed together and the best compromise achieved for the individual.
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It is as technique is what affects dps, so if that is a constant then faster arms means faster swimming. Fitness to hold DPS at higher stroke rates over time is key. Everyone here could probably descend a lap in 20seconds over and over off good rest, yesterday I hit 18 and 19 holding 17 to 18 strokes. 20sec lengths is a 5.20 400m. No way I could do that. Thats fitness to hold stroke technique at that speed which is where a gradual build comes in. Also the other part that it breaks down is that there is a lot of time spent in turns, push offs and breakout so in swimming terms it’s not quite as simple as that but for the main part it is all it is.
Improve technique at a low stroke rate, and build it up. If you can’t do 17 spl at a low stroke rate you’ll never get close at a higher one.
Artificial low sr work is good, set the tempo trainer to 45 spm and really focus on catch and pull, then when you are swimming 17spl slowly up it always counting strokes.
Obviously all these things are tools in an overall training plan, and is also showing why 4 swims a week are essential if you want to make decent gains, even if that is 20 or 30 minutes for some of them. These are the sessions to do the ultra low sr work or work on upping sr on short distances etc.
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Agree, I think the problem comes when people do a length of stroke count as opposed to counting strokes whilst “normal” swimming. I could probably do a 12 stroke length if I had to but would be bobbing along like a cork between strokes.
I’m not sure if you just agreed with me, but my point is that you can’t just change one thing and expect everything else to stay the same, and the gains to be linear. That is, you might improve SPM, but it will take time to bring the DPS back up to the original levels, assuming you improve fitness & technique to bring you whole ‘game’ up.
Sort of agreeing but not 
“trick” is to up sr slowly but never compromise technique to jump sr too much. If you are 56spm, doing 58 shouldn’t affect dps, takes focus, and some time to be able to hold it like it’s natural, then up to 60. Again big problem is the golden bullet generation thinking it can happen in a 1 hour swim4cash session. To up sr from 58 to 65 will take months. I know you understand that though. The problem is when someone reads “do 70spm” and immediately does a session, absolutely screws them and times are similar as they rush the stroke, slip water and take 22spl not the 17 they was. Sprinters take more strokes but its calculated with a 90spm sr
Thorpe could train 24spl (lcm) and raced at 32 for his 400. He could get ultra low but for racing it was slower to go artificially low as his sr was lower and it had glide, upped sr and did lose dps but is still way lower than anyone here. IIRC his rate was about 80spm also
So how do you increase dps without gliding? What are you focussing on, catch, pull, kick?
Well, that was terrible.
Did 3 * 100m, one easy, one normal, one focussing on SPM…
1:33 - 18SPL 44SPM
1:31 - 18SPL 48SPM
1:29 - 20SPL 50SPM
SO…as soon as I think about upping the SPM, my SPL also increases.
Could someone please fix this for me, now?
Maybe swim4cash can help?
Plus Thorpe had fook-off big feet iirc!
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That’s what @Jorgan is trying to say (I think), that there will some trade off between SPL and SPM, which is to be expected at first. Ongoing practice will see you bring the SPM up with the same DPS.
Imagine saying you’re trying to increase RPM on the bike while trying to ride bigger gears to get more distance per revolution - going to take time to make those gainzzz.
Biggest question is how did you get 44-50spm? Seems too high for single arm count but too low to be a double arm count 
Yes, I do agree with what he is saying.
I boiled the Hammerer’s teachings down into their essence.
I have never before thought about swimming, just sort of done it “more is good!”
Got the SPL and SPM from my Garmin Forerunner 920XT (?)
It only counts the left arm, so I have SPL @ 9 and SPM @ 22, for the 1:33.06 100m initial rep.
I simply doubled them, however, my right arm probably came over for, say two of those, adding in another stroke or two over the 100m…
100m 44spm @ 18SPL = 93 seconds
18SPL * 4L = 72 strokes for 93 seconds
72/93 * 60 = 46SPM
Or, without rounding:
100m 44spm @ 17.25SPL = 93.06 seconds
17.25SPL * 4L = 69strokes for 93.06 seconds
69/93.06 * 60 = 44SPM
Now for the 1:29.56 100m split
100m 50spm @ 20SPL = 89 seconds
20SPL * 4L = 80 strokes for 89 seconds
80/89 * 60 = 54SPM
So, with the rounding corrected:
100m 50spm @ 19.25SPL = 89.56 seconds
19.25SPL * 4L = 77 strokes for 89.56 seconds
77/89.56 * 60 = 51SPM
So, they are in the correct ball park.
@Chriswim - Are you getting at how the hell is my turnover so slow?
It really hurts when I try to move them over more, I don’t even think I can windmill at 70SPM out of water, let alone in it.
That’s technique and body position, and self analysis is easy, just get used to counting strokes. To measure overall efficiency use swolf, so 50’s with stroke count and time added together. Below 70 is a good target.