Swimming for Hammers and Spoons

Drive the arms forward as you kick, yes to that. Also (unlike freestyle) hold the glide a bit. The kick, bring ankles to bum, think a W shape, narrow legs, twist from thighs not through knees, remember to outpoint feet to drive back and in, then point toes in streamline and kick recovery.
Drills, 3 second hold glide (in streamline count to 3 before out scull and catch, 2 kicks 1 pull, 3 kicks 1 pull, work on fast arm recovery. Could do breastroke arms fly/front crawl kick also.

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Google Kosuke Kitajima, fantastic “textbook” stroke, won a few medals in his day as well :wink:. Peaty OTOH would never end up in a text book :rofl: one of the great things about the stroke is that there is no perfect way, everyone is different and the text book goes out the window when coaching it.

This is a decent underwater view.

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These issues may have been addressed elsewhere in this thread but I’m not sure where I would begin to start looking for the answers. Please feel free to point me in the right direction of these issues have already been raised.

After committing to swimming four times a week during the winter in order to improve my swim, I was swimming faster than I ever had before. Back in March I dipped under three minutes for 200m for the first time ever and also hit 6.07 for 400m which again was a personal best. However, three months later, I am swimming slower than I ever have and those sorts of times and speeds seem like a lifetime away.

I’ve mentioned before on this forum coming across an interview with Sebastian Kienle some years back when he made a comment about how he knows when he has a running injury because his swimming improves and conversely when he’s running well his swimming is garbage. I’m sure there’s something along those lines happening with me. Unusually (for me) I haven’t been injured this year and I suspect that cumulative fatigue from cycling and running is having a negative impact on my swimming.

Another factor is that in recent months I’ve tried to start re-introducing flip turns. ‘Theoretically’ I know how to flip turn but I haven’t been good at doing this consistently. Typically, I get better and more consistent with flip turns over the winter but as training ramps up during spring I go back to open turns to make the intervals more manageable.

Do any of you have any advice? I find it embarrassing that, after all these years I’m still not able to consistently and reliably flip turn. Is mastering flip turns worth the effort? What is a good approach to incorporating them in practice? What I’m finding at the moment is that in order to do them with any consistency I have to swim extremely slowly. Even then, after about 150m I start getting so tired and out of breath that the flip turn technique and my swimming technique turn to garbage. All I can really manage at the moment is 50 m with decent, flip turn form and swimming form. Do I just need to swim 50m intervals until this starts to feel easy and then build up from there? How long does this process usually take? You’ll be able to tell that I’m not from a swimming back ground. Any advice greatly appreciated.

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I went through this, upped my swims and got faster then started to go backwards, session after session I couldnt hit my targets. It was fatigue, I took a week off, went back in slowly and built up again and it improved.

I had my coach try and teach me how to do them, I got the basics but like you they were a bit all over the place and not slick. I gave up in the end. Its of no benefit really other than in a pool sprint and I could just turn more comfortably by doing a touch turn.

When I was practicing I just did them on my warm up and cool downs so as not to interrupt my actual training

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If its fatigue (quite likely) you are potentially swimming the easy stuff too hard, forget the watch and focus on long steady strokes, think about what you are doing on the easy aerobic days and save the hard stuff when you want to really go hard, much like any other training. Its much easier though to go too fast on the easy in swimming.

Flips turns are worth it, again forget the watch , work on RPE and get used to turning properly just by doing them every 25m. You will soon adapt and not worry about the oxygen debt.

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As per the other replies, have you tried swimming when fresh to see if you are quicker?

I find that if I swim after cycling or running, or even the day after a big session that the fatigue really catches up with me, stroke goes and the pace is well down. Or if I do upper body exercises and rowing.

I did a fresher swim earlier in the week and was pleasantly surprised how it went.

Still slow in the overall scheme of things but quicker than recently.

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I’ll add, and there are so many more questions that need answering, but one common reason i see for a blip in form is tightness, especially around shoulders. Just not relaxed in the water, which could be tension because of stress, poor sleep patterns over time, are you sitting more than usual, a change in office chair/desk position, sometimes just stress of “im not hitting my times” and trying too hard

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Thanks @GRamsay @Hammerer and @jeffb - really appreciate these pointers.
Think I’ve just broken (or severely bruised) a couple of ribs after taking a tumble whilst out running the trails. Hoping it’s just bruising but either way it looks like I’ll be forced to rest up for a while so I’ll have a opportunity to see whether the rest helps once I’m able to get back in the water.

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Ouch not a good way to force some rest, hope both improve soon

Went through 4,000+ swim lengths for the year so far this evening.

(25m pool)

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Nice!

I’m on 99,791m on the year, not missed a swim in 13 weeks now

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Shoulders feeling wrecked today, doesn’t happen often but I agree total fatigue really affects swimming where you won’t notice it on long runs maybe.

My 66m were 1m01s - 1m02s burning out. 1:30 100s will need to wait for days I’m not exhausted from bike run.

Main kick sets…with no fins. :man_facepalming:

So there I am bobbing up and down on the currents waving to the swimmers sailing past me.

“Technically speaking, from the side there’s nothing wrong with your kicking.”
“But I’m not moving anywhere, so…”
“So, yeah, you’re just shit at kicking.”

Tell it like it is buddy, don’t hold back.:sweat_smile:

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Hate kick sets :rofl:

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It took me 1:20 to do 50m of kicking today

Ben?

No. And it was in good humour.

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Who was it?

So, improving kicking.

Six months of fins kicking hasn’t made much difference, it seems.

Technique seems to be not a disaster, no obvious flaws. I kick from the hip, I point my toes.

Vertical kicking?

Kicking without a Kickboard?

When is one’s kicking ‘good enough’?

Id say 1:10/100 with board is a good target for good enough :wink:

fins are just a tool to use to aid development, and not the whole answer

yes and yes, it will all help. we get the kids trying to vertical kick there way up to the flags

try some dryland kicking, lay on back, lift legs using glutes 6inches and flutter kick. Its really good “fun” :wink: can you post a video of it as well :wink:

Id try kick on back also, torpedo kick style, do that on front, kick on side, some 0 arms drill. Every swim set should have about 20% kick in it, but most adult triathlon sets Id stop at ~10% as people moan
say 200m in WU some “kick chat” in cool down, drills are all kick based as a by-product also.
kick can be fast to half way, easy to end type stuff also as a variation as you need to vary the intensity also