Swimming for Hammers and Spoons

[explorerJC]

@SheffSwim

£20 suits, not £200 swim suits (that have to fit perfectly).

@explorerJC

Which is accessible to all those who can afford two swim suits…

…

[Chriswim]

Running shoes arguably cost a lot more over the course of a year than swimming equipment.
Training fees might be a lot lower for the amateur, so yes it’s accessible to get into, but again not to be truly elite without others funding you for coaching, physio, S&C, nutrition, psychology, travel to races, hotels.

Out of interest just competing at national championships (for swimming) at a young age group level can quite easily be ~£1000. The cost of swim suits is significant yes, but not the game changer in a sport that’s already >£5k per year.

[explorerJC]

@Chriswim

but again not to be truly elite without others funding you for coaching, physio, S&C, nutrition, psychology, travel to races, hotels.

and having the good fortune to be able to realise that talent…

@Chriswim

The cost of swim suits is significant yes, but not the game changer in a sport that’s already >£5k per year.

We therefore seem to have levels of accessibility…from a purely financial perspective*

The really rich could afford everything
The moderately rich could afford most things
The reasonably well off could afford some things
Most could afford sufficient to get by
Some cannot afford anything

• The real price of any child’s development is time.

[Jorgan]

Yes, biology is probably a complicating factor, and all kids develop/respond differently at that time of life. All the kids that could out-run me in first year secondary, went backwards by 5th year and I was pretty much top dog by then. Of course I did probably train more than most of them.

[explorerJC]

@SheffSwim

That’s not how it’s supposed to work : you work harder you get faster… Two of his best PBs (40.9 for 50 fly and 43.2 for 50 back which were pretty good for a - small - 10 year old when he did them) haven’t come down for nearly a year.
I do not understand it, I put it down to him growing.

A host of potential factors, and one of the big risks of measuring sport by outcome at an early age…

@Jorgan

All the kids that could out-run me in first year secondary, went backwards by 5th year and I was pretty much top dog by then.

Not uncommon…

[Hammerer]

@SheffSwim

I think it’s appalling that one swimmer could beat another by, apparently, up to two seconds over just 100m, just because they have an expensive race swim suit. I do find it genuinely depressing that is just accepted.

As said if you are paying circa £200 a month to compete then a £170 Mizuno suit isnt going to be a game changer and if you ain’t competing at least county level, then forget the shorts. El Nino only wears his when going for a time, at Championships, but never at club champs or L3 opens outside peak season

@SheffSwim

Bearing in mind that judges are quite prepared to DQ swimmers for technical stroke infringements which do not actually give that much of an advantage (and certainly don’t give any where near 2 sec per 100m advantage !) and they are often subjective

What would you prefer, that I only DQ a child for a technical infraction when they do it at a National Champs because no one has ever taught them it is wrong? Its about education and development, not punishment so they don’t do it when it really matters at a major event. The stroke rules are in place so that the actual strokes are performed, not because of some time advantage, Far from subjective the rules are quite clear, perhaps you should read them

@SheffSwim

so I do not see why it would it would be impractical for them to have a ruler and apply a totally objective measurement : more that 15cm, you’re DQed if you wear that.

So you are quite happy for someone to get the ruler out poolside on every child and start measuring their suits and DQ them, but not to report a technical infraction?

[Hammerer]

@SheffSwim

I think 2 seconds over 100m is a lot.

up to 2 seconds, certainly not an exact science if you actually read all my replies or did some research into it. If your technique isn’t great you will not get the benefit. Its the icing on the cake, not the difference between your 10 year old beating another 10 year old in some meaningless event. No one needs a suit under 14, and only a few kids have them, mostly the cheaper ones. Usually those that do “spend to win” at 11, when it does start to matter are no longer competitive as those kids pushing them, then then add the cherry on top.

[Hammerer]

@SheffSwim

and have concluded it’s running, particularly distance running.

You might want to check out the price of super shoes and the gains they give before embarrassing yourself further

[Hammerer]

@Chriswim

Out of interest just competing at national championships (for swimming) at a young age group level can quite easily be ~£1000. The cost of swim suits is significant yes, but not the game changer in a sport that’s already >£5k per year.

This is what I was , less eloquently, getting at, swimming is an expensive sport, and increasing considerable, and by the time a child is 14/15 a £170 pair of shorts is the least of your financial concerns

[Hammerer]

@SheffSwim

I feel very sorry for him actually because he is working harder then he’s ever worked (still not really hard, consistently hard, though ! ) yet he’s making little progress. That’s not how it’s supposed to work : you work harder you get faster… Two of his best PBs (40.9 for 50 fly and 43.2 for 50 back which were pretty good for a - small - 10 year old when he did them) haven’t come down for nearly a year.
I do not understand it, I put it down to him growing.

Could be any number of reasons, but kids all develop at different ages, that’s why those wearing tech suits are wasting their time under 14 years old. Just keep him at it, as long as he enjoys it with no pressure then it will all come good. look for inspiration elsewhere, i found it on my L2 coaching course a guy was swimming elite at Bath Uni, first Counties at 15, first Regionals at 16, first Nationals at 17 and a national medallist at 18!
As said previously at 12 El Nino wasn’t even close to making Counties to the point we didn’t think he would ever swim at one, at 13 he got 4 times but no invite, this year at 14 made 7 events, 3 finalist medals and now at 15 we are talking Counties as a “training” event to build for national qualification in the summer. The kid that had an Arena Carbon Air suit at 12 that beat him by 10 seconds over a 100Br. , yer beat him by 5 seconds on Monday unsuited 3 years later!

[SheffSwim]

@Chriswim

Running shoes arguably cost a lot more over the course of a year than swimming equipment.
Training fees might be a lot lower for the amateur, so yes it’s accessible to get into, but again not to be truly elite without others funding you for coaching, physio, S&C, nutrition, psychology, travel to races, hotels.

I accept that even in running if you had great natural talent and worked really hard (on your own) you probably still couldn’t get to the absolute top and win an Olympic medal, but surely you would become successful enough to get noticed by the elite squads ?

[SheffSwim]

@Chriswim

Out of interest just competing at national championships (for swimming) at a young age group level can quite easily be ~£1000. The cost of swim suits is significant yes, but not the game changer in a sport that’s already >£5k per year.

I accept that, but, for men at least, it’s somewhere the playing field could be easily levelled ?
It’s not just swimmers at Nationals who want to do well though is it ? By well I mean get meaningful medals*, even at relatively small meets.
*By that I am excluding graded medals. Just out of interest, how many kids really think B and C grade are real medals ? I mean the fact they could swim 2 seconds slower and get a “gold medal”, rather than the 8th place they actually got in “the A grade”.

[SheffSwim]

@explorerJC

The real price of any child’s development is time.

Definitely.

[pacha]

@Hammerer

if you actually read all my replies or did some research into it

You see your mistake there?

[SheffSwim]

@Hammerer

What would you prefer, that I only DQ a child for a technical infraction when they do it at a National Champs because no one has ever taught them it is wrong? Its about education and development, not punishment so they don’t do it when it really matters at a major event. The stroke rules are in place so that the actual strokes are performed, not because of some time advantage, Far from subjective the rules are quite clear, perhaps you should read them

I am not saying they should be “let off”, I am simply saying if the officials are prepared to DQ a swimmer for a minor (often subjective) technical infraction they shouldn’t have any trouble DQing a swimmer for an objective one where they might gain 2 seconds !
BTW H, I am not being critical of you for buying your lad an expensive suit, you are doing your best for him within the rules, I am simply saying I think the rules should be changed, your lad would probably do just as well (relative to the other swimmers) anyway.

[SheffSwim]

@Hammerer

You might want to check out the price of super shoes and the gains they give before embarrassing yourself further

I’m not a runner, but have read about super expensive shoes which make runners significantly faster. They should be banned !

[pacha]

@SheffSwim

I am not being critical of you for buying your lad an expensive suit

It has been a sacrifice too. He had to let one of his household staff go. Poor blooming gardener has to double up as the chauffer now.

[pacha]

@SheffSwim

They should be banned !

That horse has left the stable a long time ago.

[Hammerer]

@SheffSwim

I accept that even in running if you had great natural talent and worked really hard (on your own) you probably still couldn’t get to the absolute top and win an Olympic medal, but surely you would become successful enough to get noticed by the elite squads ?

Which is the same in every sport (ignoring politix, which is a far bigger barrier for a number of aspiring elites but a different discussion)

[explorerJC]

@Hammerer

then forget the shorts. El Nino only wears his when going for a time,

no wonder they don’t allow filming…poor lad…