Keto Diet

Training
21

OK i could discuss this for hours but its a topic that never ends well. a few quick replies to TWhat though

in the first 2 weeks you lose a lot of water as carbs cling onto a lot of water, hence chemical name of CH2O, clue is in the H2O. Bodyfat scales measure water in the body hence looking like you have lost body fat. Also you can look more ripped but think of bodybuilders pre competition, by essentially not drinking for days they get that ripped look.

this is why people are losing weight also. Its not the type of diet but the fact they spend a few weeks monitoring closely what they eat

nothing is evil in moderation and life would be very boring without an occasional slice of cake!

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22

Again… reference the research… not the protagonists. No one ever seems to be willing to cite a body of supporting material.

Journalists aren’t a valid source of insight. Taubes has got zero qualification to understand the subject at anything other than layman level. His opinion maybe interesting, but its also of very little value beyond encouraging the purchase of his book. That’s self interest right there.

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Stated as fact - is there research to back that up?

I can name plenty of micronutrients where if you eat too much, you’ll just secrete it out vitamin C for example.

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Not strictly true, you never see a fat POW for a reason! you lose weight by creating a deficit, this is irrefutable science. Yes the body becomes more efficient, and the less you weight the less you need to sustain also which is a key issue of yoyo dieting, people think they need ie 2500 a day to maintain, lose a couple of stone but still stick to the 2500 a day. Also with too much of a diet the weight you lose isnt always fat but muscle so any weight loss campaign should be backed up with strength work. to get lean, not “fat skinny”

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BTW, I don’t seen Noakes s a great source of info either…he has a track record of ‘shooting from the hip’ and saying things that he feels, rather than knows, wrapped up as fact.

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If you want some of the science (no I’ve not read them all yet, yes I’m paying attention to the research)

  1. Furmli S, Elmasry R, Ramos M, Fung J. Therapeutic use of intermittent fasting for people with type 2 diabetes as an alternative to insulin. BMJ Case Rep. 2018 Oct 9; 2018. pii: bcr-2017-221854. doi: 10.1136/bcr-2017-221854
  2. Zauner C, Schneeweiss B, Kranz A, et al. Resting energy expenditure in short-term starvation is increased as a result of an increase in serum norepinephrine. Am J Clin Nutr. 2000 Jun;71(6):1511-5.
  3. Leibel RL, Rosenbaum M, Hirsch J. Changes in energy expenditure resulting from altered body weight. N Engl J Med. 1995 Mar 9;332(10):621-8.
  4. Ho KY, Veldhuis JD, Johnson ML, et al. Fasting enhances growth hormone secretion and amplifies the complex rhythms of growth hormone secretion in man. J Clin Invest. 1988 Apr;81(4):968-75.
  5. Sumithran P, Prendergast LA, Delbridge E, et al. Long-term persistence of hormonal adaptations to weight loss. N Engl J Med. 2011 Oct 27;365(17):1597-604. doi: 10.1056/NEJMoa1105816.
  6. Espelund U, Hansen TK, Højlund K, et al. Fasting unmasks a strong inverse association between ghrelin and cortisol in serum: studies in obese and normal-weight subjects. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Feb;90(2):741-6. Epub 2004 Nov 2.
  7. Heilbronn LK, Smith SR, Martin CK, Anton SD, Ravussin E. Alternate-day fasting in nonobese subjects: effects on body weight, body composition, and energy metabolism. Am J Clin Nutr. 2005 Jan;81(1):69-73.
  8. Catenacci VA, Pan Z, Ostendorf D, et al. A randomized pilot study comparing zero-calorie alternate-day fasting to daily caloric restriction in adults with obesity. Obesity (Silver Spring). 2016 Sep;24(9):1874-83. doi: 10.1002/oby.21581.
  9. Natalucci G, Riedl S, Gleiss A, Zidek T, Frisch H. Spontaneous 24-h ghrelin secretion pattern in fasting subjects: maintenance of a meal-related pattern. Eur J Endocrinol. 2005 Jun;152(6):845-50.
  10. Bhutani S, Klempel MC, Berger RA, Varady KA. Improvements in coronary heart disease risk indicators by alternate-day fasting involve adipose tissue modulations. Obesity (Silver Spring). 2010 Nov;18(11):2152-9. doi: 10.1038/oby.2010.54. Epub 2010 Mar 18.
  11. Gilliland IC. Total fasting in the treatment of obesity. Postgrad Med J. 1968 Jan;44(507):58-61.
  12. Trepanowski JF, Kroeger CM, Barnosky A, et al. Effect of Alternate-Day Fasting on Weight Loss, Weight Maintenance, and Cardioprotection Among Metabolically Healthy Obese Adults: A Randomized Clinical Trial. JAMA Intern Med. 2017 Jul 1;177(7):930-938. doi: 10.1001/jamainternmed.2017.0936.
  13. Persynaki A, Karras S, Pichard C. Unraveling the metabolic health benefits of fasting related to religious beliefs: A narrative review. Nutrition. 2017 Mar;35:14-20. doi: 10.1016/j.nut.2016.10.005. Epub 2016 Oct 14.
  14. Sievert K, Hussain SM, Page MJ, et al. Effect of breakfast on weight and energy intake: systematic review and meta-analysis of randomised controlled trials. BMJ 2019; 364 :l42
  15. Varady KA. Intermittent versus daily calorie restriction: which diet regimen is more effective for weight loss? 2011. doi.org/10.1111/j.1467-789X.2011.00873.x
  16. Harvie MN, Pegington M, Mattson MP, et al. The effects of intermittent or continuous energy restriction on weight loss and metabolic disease risk markers: a randomized trial in young overweight women. Int J Obes (Lond). 2010;35(5):714–727. doi:10.1038/ijo.2010.171
  17. Catenacci VA, Pan Z, Ostendorf D. A randomized pilot study comparing zero-calorie alternate-day fasting to daily caloric restriction in adults with obesity. Obesity (Silver Spring). 2016 Sep;24(9):1874-83. doi: 10.1002/oby.21581.
  18. Ganesan K, Habboush Y, Sultan S. Intermittent Fasting: The Choice for a Healthier Lifestyle. Cureus. 2018;10(7):e2947. 2018 Jul. doi:10.7759/cureus.2947
  19. Moro T, Tinsley G, Bianco A, et al. Effects of eight weeks of time-restricted feeding (16/8) on basal metabolism, maximal strength, body composition, inflammation, and cardiovascular risk factors in resistance-trained males. J Transl Med. 2016;14(1):290. 2016 Oct. doi:10.1186/s12967-016-1044-0
  20. Rothschild J, Hoddy KK, Jambazian P, Varady K. Time-restricted feeding and risk of metabolic disease: a review of human and animal studies. Nutrition Reviews. 2014; 72(5):308-318. doi.org/10.1111/nure.12104
  21. Shariatpanahi ZV, Shariatpanahi MV, Shahbazi S, Hossaini A, Abadi A. Effect of Ramadan fasting on some indices of insulin resistance and components of the metabolic syndrome in healthy male adults. Br J Nutr. 2008 Jul;100(1):147-51. Epub 2007 Dec 6.
  22. Munsters MJ, Saris WH. Effects of meal frequency on metabolic profiles and substrate partitioning in lean healthy males. PLoS One. 2012;7(6):e38632. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0038632. Epub 2012 Jun 13.
  23. Furmli S, Elmasry R, Ramos M, Fung J. Therapeutic use of intermittent fasting for people with type 2 diabetes as an alternative to insulin. BMJ Case Rep. 2018;2018:bcr2017221854. Published 2018 Oct 9. doi:10.1136/bcr-2017-221854
  24. Carter S, Clifton PM, Keogh JB. Effect of Intermittent Compared With Continuous Energy Restricted Diet on Glycemic Control in Patients With Type 2 Diabetes: A Randomized Noninferiority Trial. JAMA Netw Open. 2018 Jul 6;1(3):e180756. doi: 10.1001/jamanetworkopen.2018.0756.
  25. Carter S, Clifton PM, Keogh JB.The effects of intermittent compared to continuous energy restriction on glycaemic control in type 2 diabetes; a pragmatic pilot trial. Diabetes Res Clin Pract. 2016 Dec;122:106-112. doi: 10.1016/j.diabres.2016.10.010. Epub 2016 Oct 19.
  26. Mattson MP, Moehl K, Ghena N, Schmaedick M, Cheng A. Intermittent metabolic switching, neuroplasticity and brain health. Nat Rev Neurosci. 2018;19(2):63–80. doi:10.1038/nrn.2017.156
  27. Hussin NM, Shahar S, Teng NI, Ngah WZ, Das SK. Efficacy of fasting and calorie restriction (FCR) on mood and depression among ageing men. J Nutr Health Aging. 2013;17(8):674-80. doi: 10.1007/s12603-013-0344-9.
  28. Persynaki A, Karras S, Pichard C. Unraveling the metabolic health benefits of fasting related to religious beliefs: A narrative review. Nutrition. 2017 Mar;35:14-20. doi: 10.1016/j.nut.2016.10.005. Epub 2016 Oct 14.
  29. Horne BD, Muhlestein JB, LappĂŠ DL, et al. Randomized cross-over trial of short-term water-only fasting: metabolic and cardiovascular consequences. Nutr Metab Cardiovasc Dis. 2013 Nov;23(11):1050-7. doi: 10.1016/j.numecd.2012.09.007. Epub 2012 Dec 7.
  30. Ganesan K, Habboush Y, Sultan S. Intermittent Fasting: The Choice for a Healthier Lifestyle. Cureus. 2018;10(7):e2947. Published 2018 Jul 9. doi:10.7759/cureus.2947
  31. Varady KA, Dam VT, Klempel MC, et al. Effects of weight loss via high fat vs. low fat alternate day fasting diets on free fatty acid profiles. Sci Rep. 2015 Jan 5;5:7561. doi: 10.1038/srep07561.
  32. Mattson MP. Lifelong brain health is a lifelong challenge: from evolutionary principles to empirical evidence. Ageing Res Rev. 2015 Mar;20:37-45. doi: 10.1016/j.arr.2014.12.011. Epub 2015 Jan 7.
  33. Longo VD. Programmed longevity, youthspan, and juventology. Aging Cell. 2019 Feb;18(1):e12843. doi: 10.1111/acel.12843. Epub 2018 Oct 17.
  34. Mattson MP, Longo VD, Harvie M. Impact of intermittent fasting on health and disease processes. Ageing Res Rev. 2017 Oct;39:46-58. doi: 10.1016/j.arr.2016.10.005. Epub 2016 Oct 31.
  35. Longo VD, Mattson MP. Fasting: molecular mechanisms and clinical applications. Cell Metab. 2014 Feb 4;19(2):181-92. doi: 10.1016/j.cmet.2013.12.008. Epub 2014 Jan 16.
  36. Johnson JB, Summer W, Cutler RG, et al. Alternate day calorie restriction improves clinical findings and reduces markers of oxidative stress and inflammation in overweight adults with moderate asthma. Free Radic Biol Med. 2007 Mar 1;42(5):665-74. Epub 2006 Dec 14.
  37. Harris L, Hamilton S, Azevedo LB, et al. Intermittent fasting interventions for treatment of overweight and obesity in adults: a systematic review and meta-analysis. JBI Data of Syst Rev and Imp Rep: 2018;16(2):507–547. doi: 10.11124/JBISRIR-2016-003248
  38. Harris L, McGarty A, Hutchison L, Ells L, Hankey C. Short‐term intermittent energy restriction interventions for weight management: a systematic review and meta‐analysis. Obesity Reviews. 2017. doi.org/10.1111/obr.12593
  39. Stewart WK, Fleming LW. Features of a successful therapeutic fast of 382 days’ duration. Postgrad Med J. 1973;49(569):203–209.
  40. Mattson MP, Longo VD, Harvie M. Impact of intermittent fasting on health and disease processes. Ageing Res Rev. 2017;39:46–58. doi:10.1016/j.arr.2016.10.005
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  1. externally imposed starvation isn’t a proxy for normal weight loss/control. POWs have huge amounts of muscle wastage and significant other health problems but yes you would weigh a lot less.

  2. Science is rarely irrefutable and in this case it sounds like you’re sticking to dogma

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this is a pretty good piece. There’s not a lot of 100% scientific proof about anything but CICO is as close to guaranteed as you can get, but the CalOut is where it breaks down due to many different factors. We are not created equal! think of the big V8 and the 1.2L both do the same job but both use vastly different amounts of energy, then one that’s slightly older, or has a couple of parts not fully efficient. add some aircon or a computer (brain and cooling systems) that also may not work in the same way as the other car so you only really know how much with trial and error. But if you know how much your “car” is using you know exactly how much you require

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I only clicked on the first one, and read this “This case series documents three patients”

I think the answer is in that first 6 words. It is not a study. Are the rest as thorough?

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and number 2 “were measured in 11 healthy, lean subjects”

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31

This is great; the one research piece I just read " *Effects of weight loss via high fat vs. low fat alternate day fasting diets" just corroborates what I have already read. HF and LF diets (same calorie intake) both resulted in similar weight loss over 10 week period, however, people on the HF diet had much higher concentration of Free Fatty Acids, which are a known risk factor for coronary heart disease

@Hammerer this research started with 35 people, 29 people finished the trial

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32

On the first point yes. There’s lots of evidence that if people maintain a calorie deficit that they lose fat. Maintaining that calorie deficit is often the reason people fail to achieve their fat loss goals.

Your second point seems irrelevant.

ETA: I am fully aware that pushing a calorie deficit to obese people will not work for them but that is not what we’re talking aboput here. I am referring to the largely healthy, very active individuals on here not people with metabloic issues.

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33

This seems poor to me. Firstly you state that starvation isn’t a proxy for normal weight loss, yet your links in general refer to people who are ill. The same is tru for them surely? Secondly, stating H is sticking to dogma is not refuting his points, more playing the man than the ball there IMO.

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Its complicated for sure, and i’m under no illusions that the scales arent the best way to measure health. One thing i would say is i’m ‘looking’ leaner around the midriff. So its all about my vanity. Sadly i’m still lightyears away from a sixpack but that probably doesnt really matter to a married 45y old father of 4 :rofl:

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35

You go for it and enjoy it :facepunch: :muscle:

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couldn’t find a single one there that looked at Ketosis. Most review the impact of fasting and/or compare with calorie restriction.

I’m not anti keto diets, just anti the message that they are a panacea, healthy or indeed an effective dietary mechanism… the evidence is absolutely not there to support that yet.

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the key thing for everyone is not in the details, its the bigger simpler picture as with most of our training also. With food, its very simple, most problems are with portion control and hidden calories so when i coach nutrition (I am a qualified not armchair) I just say, dont eat unless you are sat at a table. Make sure you have the colours of the rainbow on your plate, try to avoid beige foods, two “palms” of protein with all 3 meals, eat slowly and only eat to 80% full as within 20 minutes of finishing and the body is digesting it you will be full plenty of water and reduce stress and increase sleep. Until you are getting this right then the rest doesn’t matter.

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38

I don’t think you should mix up fasting & low carb. There seems to be quite a lot of evidence on the benefits of fasting, better performance in athletes form a keto diet, doesn’t seem so.

As an aside I have a bit of fetish for TV survival programs, naked & afraid, Bear Grylls island & such. It’s funny how they never manage to find contestants that have those pesky genetics that ‘always’ make them put on weight :slight_smile:

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39

This has livened up a Thursday morning :slightly_smiling_face:

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40

The fact I’ve been reading this whilst munching through a bag of dark chocolate cranberries probably sums me up!

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