Yes. But that’s what I take issue with. Being a douchebag just makes you a bad person. The illegal stuff he did was still done by everyone else, so why do they get a free pass.
And as I think I mentioned further up, he was only more of a douchebag because he was the one winning, and so therefore got more questions and subjected to more scrutiny, so had to be more firm in his “defences”. Joe Bloggs in the middle of the peloton, doing largely the same doping programme as Lance, would never have had to worry about keeping all his ducks in a row anywhere near as thoroughly
Armstrong and Bruyneel were given ample opportunity to cooperate with the Grand Jury and USADA investigation but refused, that is the reason for their life time bans IIRC. They also ensured that if you wanted to be riding in that team, especialy the TdF team you had to be on the program or do one. That isn’t being a douchbag that is pressuring/bullying others to dope.
Which is exactly what every other team did. How many other ex-pros do you need to hear from who said they either joined in with doping, or their career was over.
As for the cooperation thing, I’ve heard that was not the case. What I heard was they were never offered the “shop Lance and you get off Scott free option”, as there was no bigger fish. But we’ll never know for sure.
I’m not defending him, or the culture. But he was only marginally worse than everyone else from what I’ve read, watched, and determined for myself. Just my view though
Surely we should be grateful that USADA and the Grand Jury investigation happened and found those guilty? The alternative is what the Spanish legal system did with Puerto. I don’t see Armstrong as a victim, he had a chance to cooperate but was too arrogant.
ETA: Just my 2p opinion, probably a bit overpriced
Joe Bloggs in the middle was not doing the same programme, even on the same team they didn’t dope their lesser riders as much, let alone the teams who didn’t have the budget.
Indurain was the previous 5x winner of the TdF in recent times. I don’t think there’s evidence he was systematically bullying and coercing his fellow riders? By all accounts, he was a thoroughly nice chap. Ullrich, Pantani, Basso all these other (tainted) grand tour winning riders…again they were not known for being bullies.
Fair point. But whether you’re doing 1 blood bag, or a dozen, I don’t think that makes such a difference. They’re both wrong in my mind. Was Lance on something noone else in the peloton was doing? I was not aware about that.
I accept “marginally worse” is an understatement. He was a horrible person in general. As Jorgan says, he was a bully, and from what I’ve seen he was that before any doping programme.
But I don’t see why being a “nice” doper is somehow more acceptable?! It’s still wrong! Yes, Lance’s approach put people in the firing line which was horrible, but as I said further up, the E O’R comments on this programme painted Walsh in a totally different light to me. He was just as bad in a journalistic way. He completely f*cked her. Told he was doing one story, then wrote another, and threw her under the Lance bus without a second thought, just to get the story he wanted.
Simple I guess, the higher you go, the further you fall. If you tread hard on people when you’re at the top, then there’s an even bigger target on your back. Lance made a lot of enemies; which is why he has been hung-out to dry.
Put into another context…
Two people at work have been using the printer & stationery for personal use. One of them is an unpopular douchebag middle manager with his own side-business, who no-one likes. The other is Bob from accounts, who’s using it for his bowling league. Wendy from Finance knows about this. Who is she more likely to grass on, in the hope they get in trouble?
Fair analogy. But maybe that’s why I’m so annoyed by the situation, as that kind of thing annoys me to.
I hate the whole concept of plea deals, and the like, in the US … first one to talk gets a free ride? If two guys murdered someone, why does one guy confessing first give him a lighter sentence?
I don’t buy contrition in that mindset. It’s the same with sentencing. Why does someone feigning remorse often get a lighter punishment for the exact same crime than someone who is just honest and says “I did it because I did”.
I have no sympathy for Lance. Maybe others got off lightly - rather than him being treated harshly. But I’m not losing any sleep over it.
Working my way through the show on iPlayer. It seems to play the narrative that he was doing what everyone else was doing, just better and more ruthlessly. But it’s clear to me he doesn’t have remorse, his regret is being caught and he sees himself as a victim. Says he takes responsibility, but don’t believe he is sincere in anything he says.
The comment about whether he would support his son taking drugs was scary.
And he clearly still has plenty of money, and lives off his brand. So tainted or not, it makes a nice living for him.
You’re right that’s why he was in effect caught. But his lifetime ban isn’t not for being a bully, for ruining other people’s careers because they weren’t with him. It is because he didn’t cooperate. Those that did, did to a Grand Jury, if you lie you go to prison. I think that is incentive enough without any USADA ‘deal’.
On Pantani, Ullrich, etc. Something I got from Thomas Dekker’s book. He seemed to have a real internal struggle with doping and it caused his emotional and psychological downfall, probably the same for Ullrich, Pantani and others. I think that Armstrong’s real superpower was being a sociopath it didn’t affect him. Dekker had to leave it all behind and having nothing to do with the sport for peace of mind.
But that’s exactly my point. In the mindset of a non-doper, everyone who did dope and prevented them from having a career is equally at fault. Only the lucky few can win. Most make a career as a domestique. And so Lance’s doping wasn’t preventing Joe Bloggs from getting a shot at a pro cycling contract as a domestique. The less visible, lower profile doping of the rest of the pro peloton was. So why do they get a free pass, when it was the doping they were doing that was actually what stifled the average clean riders opportunities.
