Thanks, I agree with what you’ve said and will gladly change my stated opinion. I don’t think they’re needed every week as I’ve mis-written, but do still think they’re a key part of the programme at the top end - more than “just a couple in the last 8 weeks” as was suggested in OP.
I’m no formal coach, and only have very small tri experience. I have more to learn than to teach compared to others on here; part of my reply was trying to summarise what had been said to promote discussion, as I think it’s a worthwhile questiom as you’ve shown by your reply.
Likewise I fully agree on the importance of doing some intensity within the long rides, which perhaps becomes more important at higher abilities?
Wish I had something more grounded in physiology to reply with, and should improve use of language. But anecdotally I mean that starting tri I had good aerobic fitness from swimming, could do a long ride and feel awake still after, never get out of breath etc. And I could squat 100kg to have some basic strength. But what I lacked most was “muscular Endurance” in that during that long ride my legs didn’t have the ability to ride 2-3 hours and maintain even low Z2 power.
But physiologically what is the adaptation that allows that? Assuming that it isn’t what I think it is which is angiogenesis and increased mitochondrial efficiency (and denisty from hard efforts). These changes, for me, explain the metabolic adaptations to aerobic exercise of slower utilisation of muscle glycogen and blood glucose, better fat oxidation, and less lactate production.
If it’s hypertrophy, which can occur from endurance exercise then fair enough.
*Not quizzing you or challenging your knowledge H just want to understand what people mean.
This is kind of my point. You have the central adaptations for swimming of increased heart muscle and size, excellent lung function. But the specific peripheral changes are for swimming not cycling because your leg muscles lacked the mitochondria and their enzymes, capillary density and maybe too much influence from fast twtich fibres?.
I think I built to something like 6 or 7 long Sunday rides before IM last year. All at a leisurely pace (L1 HR) and on TT bike to get drilled into that position for that length of time. At the end of the rides I wasn’t crawling through the door and was able to go and do long runs on a Tuesday with no fatigue.
Previously I had just gone out and smashed it all over the place with mates, waved my willy a bit on strava, then gone to IM , put in a good bike split and detonated on the run.This last time around I was able to put away a competent marathon.
For me, long rides work, but at a low intensity that doesn’t bugger the rest of the week.
I have Brett Suttons ‘12 hour a week’ and ‘16 hour a week’ IM training plans. (they actually peak at about 14-15 and 18-20 hours ).
The shorter one only has one ride of 5 hours and three of 4 and a half, and they all have some sessions of work in them.
The longer one, which has much bigger sessions in the week, has more 5 hour rides (maybe one of 5 and a half, I can’t remember) but they are at ‘very easy’ pace.
My long rides are currently into the hills for 4-5 hours.
NP is about 230W (FTP of 280W)
This is for IM Bolton.
Last year, for the pan flat 113, I rode 2.5-3 hours on the local TT courses (a bit hillier than the 113) at 230W (FTP of 285W then) focussing on a VI of <1.03
Those were my “long” rides
4.5 hrs is considerably different to the 2hrs TinPot was talking about. I’d call that long for most, it’s about 70miles even at just finish pace
His plans also have 8 x 3hr rides and a couple of 3hr/90min bricks.
I understand the point you are making, and it often comes up with regards to physiology, energy pathways (at a given level it’s just a mix of the energy pathways) etc.
However, in the grounds of reality & experience there is a big difference between working your ‘cardiovascular system’ and working your ‘muscle/strength endurance system’. If you go and do a 5 hr ride at the same power at 70rpm and 95rpm you will feel very different afterwards and get a different training effect over the following days.
Physiologically speaking what is the difference in adaptation and why? I would still argue that for most of us on here the adapatations you get from a 5 Hr ‘CV system’ ride at 95 rpm are peripheral, in the muscles, not centrally to the heart. From a practical perspective I understand what you’re saying, I just think the adaptations are in the muscles. I think the term ‘cardio’ to describe exercise as utterly pointless and describes nothing.
Although I don’t do many of them now, certainly not in this weather I also used to like long rides if the pressure was off. E.g. just go and ride over the moors for 3-5 hours and enjoy being out.
But, when you are tired and look at your training plan for the next few weeks and it says, 5-6 hours *3, and probably 3 long runs & swims I tend to feel a bit differently. Especially in recent years.
A mate who turned down Kona a couple of times and managed a 10:01 at Bolton based most of his training on the bike. He was generally a ~60 minute swimmer, and his longest runs were 2 hours on the Sunday after a long hard ride on the Saturday.
He’d go out for some long rides on the Saturday very regularly with some pretty good cyclists and pull their legs off at times. He was also a fairly well built lad, probably helped that he was late 20’s I think of course.
I very rarely ride with anyone else - although I do have friends, honest - the times I do I find them enjoyable but ultimately more rewarding when completed solo.
- the times I do I find them enjoyable but ultimately more rewarding when completed solo.
