I wasn’t commenting on any of that TBH. My only point was that i don’t know if any coach or Ex. Physiologist (just to cover basis) that proposes that ALL training should be Z2.
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Why say Z2 if we don’t know what that means?
If you’re already doing ten hours a week of swim, bike and hard running, how much cardio improvement will z2 running add?
It’s just a complicated question is all Mungo. What a zone is, what’s best for one athlete over another, blah blah.
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It’s mostly gooblydegook
As different people will react differently to training, some of my best runs …long and shorter fast efforts x as me off the back of lots (30-35 ?) of one hour runs at 130 bpm
The speed was irrelevant
I just kept the Hr at 130, gradually the speed went up and up.
Not for one second did I feel like I would get injured and with a few, and it was a few …interval sessions thrown in I managed a really good half in a 70.3 and an ok sub 4 Ironman marathon when I was totally knackered from the bike.
I’m sort of doing something similar now, it hasn’t started working yet lol
But hopefully it will.
I’m assuming 130 is z2 with a max of 186 ?!during a hyrox ( not the run funnily enoigh)
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Can we define “cardio” so I can formulate an answer? 
It depends… how long has the ‘already doing 10 hours’ been happening?
I’d say possibly a fair bit, a 2 hour long run ‘Z2’ is +20% duration, and much more than 20% for running alone. Even if its minimal benefit directly to ‘cardio’ it will help with other areas of fitness and support those harder sessions imo.
My personal bias but I think it works for almost everyone. The thing is many get bored and dont see it through. Or dont have the time before an A event they have set their mind on.
If theres enough volume and done for long enough I would be amazed if the improvements dont come as you will know from previously it takes time.
I did very similar for 9 - 12 months, zero speed work, as before I would always get injured every 4-6 weeks. Not only did my pace for my given HR improve by minutes, I didn’t get a run injury for just over 3 years (I finally did when I pushed the intervals far too much, for ages after the reintroduction of intervals they were fine, but thats a different story.)
Along with the benefit of better pace per heart beat, I also gained more resilience against injury.
I didnt realise at the time what I was doing was very close to MAF training (maximum aerobic function) and the 180 - age +/-adj formula.
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The improvements aren’t quite coming as I’m comparing my 56 year old heart and body to my 51 year old previous self.
Carrying two “ niggles” has sort of forced me into 8-9? Hours of running at 11 kph some hour efforts some in circuit / hyrox type stuff.
This morning was the first time faster and it felt nice with no issues.
I’ll try hour bike ( hard) hour run (11.5 kph) Sunday and see we’re I’m at.
It takes patience true, it’s actually quite relaxing I think
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Maybe try some rowing? 
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As it happens …!
Hyrox sim this morning
6 x 1 k runs ( 12-13 kph)
One of the six stations was a 1 k row
Back finally good enough to achieve a race standard km.
Big row on the way 2025… ( steady pace ) great machine !
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it just tends to delay injury from acute to chronic…
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From a personal point of view I’d strongly disagree ( rare for me and you !)
I can’t test this theory out …. But I can run at 12 kph and below every day all day … ish, and I’m pretty certain that nothing would ping !
It’s the faster stuff, park runs, flat out efforts, tempo runs that my ageing body struggles with ( I still enjoy it) if I did the amount of intervals/ races my training partner does ( some weeks he does park run in the morning and x country in the afternoon !) I would 100% get a problem in no time at all.
I guess when you get to our age… it’s about managing it, making a plan that gets the best out of you whilst lessening the risk of injury.
stick at it EJC hope project 21 is on the up?
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I think you are both correct on this one. The devil is in the detail as they say.
… ‘delay’ or ‘shift’ that may happen in some circumstances especially amongst elites.
There is certainly a shift from acute to chronic.
Instead it could be more niggles, tightness, soreness, reduced range of movement.
Its just a longer journey to the overload level that causes over use problems.
Suddenly jump the volume or do very high volume and the acute injuries can and will still happen for some. There’s a limit for everyone, although some amateurs might not have the time to get to that point.
Personally I noticed more ROM, soreness issues over 100km a week. I think if I’d pushed to 130km 150km then the risk of pulled muscles, stress fractures even running easy would greatly increase.
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That’s a good point and an under realised one I think. I definitely feel that a lot of people prescribe injury to recent training without ever considering the longer term load. Run injuries, certainly.
Overload can happen from any kind of intensity, over any kind of time.
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If you successfully did something regularly for a long period of time, then after that where does the overload come from?
Both for training and for injury risk.
Overuse injury happens when tissue load overcomes capacity. If the load hasn’t changed then their capacity has. At some point relatively close to an injury the balance of training load changed to outweigh capacity/regeneration.
*Your alternative argument could be that long slow training forces people to continually increase mileage to get improvements which becomes unsustainable.
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Yeah I think we’re agreeing here.
Load can exceed capacity both because you’re easy work is so long that your tissues can’t take it or the demand is too high in a short intense work.
You may have taken your body to the edge of capacity with endurance work, then do one track session and blame the intensity…but it was the endurance work wot dun it, essentially. You would have injured on the next long run, but will never know.
Thats not to undermine, but support/promote the principle of progressive overload.
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Perhaps.
I agree people might blame the track run when the culprit is actually the high overall volume. But it’s the additional load that got them acutely injured.
I’m suggesting if they didn’t add in something, whatever it is that changes that balance, they’d have been unlikely to get injured.
Unless you’re taking it over a really long time frame (decades) and saying it’s because people’s tissue capacity starts declining with age.
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I’m going to test this out
Ish
As Chris the fish states above
We’re did the overload come from ?
One caveat here is I ran at 130 bpm for an hour on lots and lots of occasions
Several were two hours continuous
One was for three.
I religiously ran day on day off
I never run on consecutive days
Not for one second was I ever getting near an injury.
Every single flat out 5k or interval session I always think am I going to be injured at the end of this?
Several times … I have been
We are all different but at this stage after 10,20,30 years racing we know ourselves better than anyone else does.
chronic injuries tend not to go ping…although that’s not always the case…
and some people are simply wired/developed differently…
I am of course generalising…
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not yet…
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Hope your on the mend.
He’s doing a mud run tomorrow, he’s certainly fitter since we started training together ?!
Sadly I’m not ?!
There is time yet.
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For that to be true, you are assuming that the body is completely recovered from each session, which may not be the case…therefore the overall load has increased even though the session load has not and appears sustainable…
What can also appear acute in these circumstances is when that load results in changes in form, resulting in the body giving out in a less obvious area…
Yep…
Yep…
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