It ain’t that 
2 Likes
Well, Distance Per Stroke (DPS) just makes me glide more and do an extension, which reduces my Strokes Per Length (SPL) - if I’m trying I can get that properly low.
But then I read it’s all about arm turnover?
So I should be increasing my stroke rate!?
Don’t breathe on the stroke before the wall.
Accelerate into the wall.
Don’t breathe on the stroke after the wall.
Dolphin kick (from the torso - use the whole body)
Then keep my arms wide, not crossing the centre mass, but keep the triangle and employ Early Vertical Forearm (EVF)
All the while keeping my shoulders close to my head.
I’m pretty good at fist drill, easily under 1:50/100m, so reckon I’ve got a decent EVF anyhow, not a swimmers one, but decent for a triathlete / Adult Onset Swimmer (AOS)
Hit the gym?
Work on my triceps and lats?
I’m lost how to get my speed down in the pool, there’s literally nothing out there (which is the same for 17min 5km plans and 80min Half Marathon plans)
I want to work on my 100m time first, then use that sprint speed for endurance work in 400m, then 750m.
I lost Southport Triathlon by 3 minutes, all of which was in the swim (winner swam 1:15/100m)
My short answer would be to swim with a squad , ideally more than once per week, where others are swimming at your target pace or better. It can pull you up to their level.
1 Like
DPS, you need to be finding ways through technique and body position changes, continuous swimming is key, no glide. Counting strokes is a good way to measure if something is working. Stick a tempo trainer on and that will make sure you hold same SR each length. Also 3 dolphin kicks off wall max. but even if you choose 1, keep it the same.
“Musicians drill” slow the whole stroke down , but keep it continuous just slower and more deliberate, 45 SPM on the Tempo trainer, gives you time to think about what you are doing, just like a musician would learning a new piece!
To improve from your level, set a goal, so 100 time below 1.10. I’d be doing sets around target race pace, broken 100s for instance so 4x25 with 10sec rest at 17seconds. Drop rest to 5 seconds, do some 50s off 10 holding 34seconds.
some sprinting , short hard things like 5m flat out 20m easy 10/15 15/10 and back down.
Some easier stuff at low stroke rates (technique) I’m not a massive fan of drills generally, more focused swimming but you can do that using some drills ie 0 arm, single arm with arm by side and breath wrong side. 0 to full progressions, stuff to relax you ie zipper, popov, broken arrow. Lots of kicking for timing and balance.
Then extend it out, goal is 200 in 2.30 or 400 in 5mins and do that broken ie 16x25 off 30 holding 17seconds 17strokes…reduce rest.
Take the goal, work backwards. Only move on to next phase when current becomes normal.
Swim more, swim with swimmers, swim with a purpose
4 Likes
So increase my arm turnover?
I definitely have a “dead spot” at the extension, where I’m gliding.
I believe this is from Swim Smooth when I learned how to swim for triathlon.
Those little yellow things which beep?
I think the Garmin can do that now, can’t it @stenard?
I believe you mentioned it elsewhere? One of those iQ apps?
Although I have a really old FR920XT, which works fine:
Yeah, that’s the same for everything 
Urgh! Really?
Can I just have some Tailwind, instead?
There are no swim squads at my local, without driving somewhere, they are also at like 9pm, which is my bedtime.
Here are some stats for you - I don’t have a clue what they mean, but the internet says my SWOLF is good?
My wingspan is 1.86m (slightly more than my height, long fingers!)
Here are some stats…
…my 100m is significantly faster than my 200/400 times.
However, from my 200 to 400, there is zero drop off.
I swim in a 25m pool, flip turn and dolphin kick to just after the flags.
Last length I won’t breathe after the flags, either.
Not sure on my 25m 41 SWOLF score?
Looks a bit high to me?
(21.8s per 25m, plus 19 strokes = 41?)
I do my 25s at 18s at the minute, not sure I can get down to 17s !!!
Do not think I can get my 50s down to 34s, either, like how???
That’s dropping 4s of what I currently do!
HOW?!?
I did 15 x 50m all in 38s off 12s rest recently.
17SPL for that.
100m in 1:17.1 for 64 strokes, 16SPL, 48SPM, 1.5625m DPS, 35 SWOLF
splits as;
19.4 16 strokes
19.4 16 strokes
20.2 16 strokes
18.2 16 strokes
200m in 2:55.6 for 154 strokes, 19SPL, 53SPM, 1.2987m DPS, 41 SWOLF
400m in 5:49.0 for 308 strokes, 19SPL, 53SPM, 1.2987m DPS, 41 SWOLF
Sounds like you’re searching for a breakthrough. What about one of those two day intensive coached clinics somewhere?
1 Like
snake oil, innit.
They prey on triathletes with cash to burn.
You need way way more analysis than two days to find something, nor do I want to break my stroke down, lose speed, only to then spend another six-twelve months building it back up, only to find out I’m exactly where I was 
I now find swimming at 1:30/100m relatively straightforward, anything quicker is mod-hard, slower is down to 1:40/100m, but that’s lazy and I can feel I’m purposefully being slow, 1:37/100m is probably more like a decent warm up pace.
I tend to do some back, BR and FLY in the warm up and cool down, like a bit of fly just after the main set and before the cool down.
1 Like
I moved the tempo trainer from 50 to 52, man alive that made more of a difference than I thought it would. I found it much harder and initially was fighting the water too much. I was genuinely finding holding that off 30s hard, so decided to do it as 4x (4x 25m) with a longer rest between each 4. Held 17 SPL for the first 12, 13 went to 18 SPL and 14 just fell apart. Called it a day there and swam easy. Not sure if fatigue from yesterday’s DPS set meant I struggled but no matter. Easy swim tomorrow.
Not sure how much it matters but my reach is 178cm and I’m 168-9cm - 
arms is a name I have been given previously.
2 Likes
The Garmin can only do the tempo trainer mode which is one beep per length. H is on about the metronome mode where you do one stroke per beep. There’s a mode like that in running, but not the swimming profile
2 Likes
That is the million dollar question. without being poolside I have no idea! I can feed methodologies I use and techniques but without spending months poolside guiding and building I can do little more.
The fact your 200 and 400 are similar pace is not surprising as both for our paces will largely be aerobic. An Elite will be able to do a 200 using largely anaerobic systems so drop off will be a lot more.
count strokes, reduce strokes for same SR you go faster, keep same number of SPL and up stroke rate you go faster.
3 Likes
A guy came to our local pool once, my shape but 6’4". Got in and nice and relaxed did 16 SPL at 60 SPM (yes I counted both) . A great thing to watch. He just kept doing these 100m all looking so easy. I assume he started going to the masters sessions I told him about instead of swimming with numpties like me.
Strength isn’t an issue having seen the Leeds elites up close, the blokes aren’t strong in a lift heavy stuff way and the women are tiny.
I think I mentioned this before but I had a chat with SImon Ward about this and he tried to explain but I didn’t get it but I think I do now. He pointed out Non and Vicky H (as they were swimming in the next lane) and their high stroke rate and said I need to build towards that. I said but if I am pulling hard to get a decent SPL I just can’t physically do that faster as I will fatigue so rapidly. I think I have worked out that it’s a double edged sword. If this is rubbish please be blunt. For me to move faster at a decent SPL I pull really hard at first. But as I get better I don’t have to pull quite so hard and it is a more synchronised, relaxed movement fo the same speed and SPL. As I start to move faster, each pull doesn’t have to be quite so hard to maintain that slightly higher speed, as to get there the whole stroke has had to improve. As I slowly increase the SPM while maintaining the SPL, each increment in SPM is initially a challenge to current skill level but with time the whole stroke will again improve meaning each pull is easier than it initially was on the onset of the increased SPM. As this happens the ability to then extend the distance I can do that for improves. So yes fitness improves with it, an has to, but actually it is the ability to maintain the improved form that allows it extend.
I hope I have explained my thinking clearly here.
2 Likes
About 10 years ago I got my 400m time down to a low of 5m17s in a pool based sprint just by hanging on in the fast lane at our local tri club.
There were 3 regulars who could swim sub 5 minutes for 400m, one was Harry Wiltshire’s brother Jack (/name drop).
How it worked I don’t know, but there was something about swimming on the feet of a faster swimmer trying not to let the elastic snap that just worked for me. The rest just seemed to come. Way slower now sadly. Passage of time + no longer swimming as regularly.
Enjoying masters swim sessions though, went again last night and there was a young guy in the next lane banging out 200m in 2m35s, obv couldn’t stay with him but managed to knock out some 2m50s which is a faster than I would have swum solo.
3 Likes
swimming should always be hard, you are moving a lot of water. some science stuff mentions about speed of water and the pressure needed to push it, think about lift and drag (in swimming terms moving forwards is the lift not what Doc Counsilman originally said about hydrofoil effect of lift which has been disproved since) . I will use the best distance swimmer ever in my opinion, Thorpe, he could do 22SPL (LCM) in a training session, not gliding but deliberate swimming, so A1/A2 level aerobic pace, in a race that would slip to 34 (yep still 17SPL SCM and he doesnt get a push off at half way!) so yes expect some slippage as you up stroke rate but work on both areas to try and keep that loss to a minimum. SR is also key, target for most should be above 70, many elite pool swimmers will still be 80+ which sort of dispels the myth you need higher stroke rates in OW as they are high in pool swimmers anyway, just most of us AOS are way too low generally!
2 Likes
Strokes per minute 
What. The. Actual?
I don’t think I can even do that on dry land, windmilling 
1 Like
That’s the aim for the juniors i coach tri as a minimum target. those without swimming backgrounds are usually around 60 or less, swimmers are above 70 typically. I do as always caveat that with its a long process, if at 60, up it in small steps, ie go to 62 for target pace sessions, when it feels 7/10 RPE for instance go to 64
1 Like
I’m 48 for my 100s, 53 for 200/400.
goin’ up to 60 sounds horrific.
1 Like
Yes, that’s what I’m working on too.
Can I calculate my SPM from my SPL, or does the push off the wall mess that up?
Eg I was up to 18SPL in a 30s 33m length today, which doubles to give 36SPM but obviously About 5s (doubled to 10) of that is the push off the wall.
It’s like the revelation I had with running earlier this year - to run faster …I have to move my legs faster! 
But that’s not always true for swimming.
If I move my arms faster, the stroke decays and I actually go less distance per stroke.
It’s finding that balance.
Eh???
You’re spending 5s pushing of the wall?
Are you eating your lunch on the turns or what?
