Swimming Stroke Rate

[Adam]

Standing around and chatting at the end of the lane it seems

[G8zzaj]

I wish! Dying and gasping for error and a little pep talk not to get out and just jack it in for the day at the end of every length

[pacha]

@Hammerer

Front Crawl we build to 70spm

Which Gazza H says is about the upper limit of a hip driven stroke.

[stenard]

Hammerer is your man, but based on those numbers your taking nearly 50 strokes per length, and that’s probably with a bit of a push off. I do accept there’s some hydrodynamism that comes from a better body position/swimming faster, but IMO there must be some easy wins in the stroke mechanics somewhere.

Our club coach would definitely not be recommending you start trying to speed up stroke rate at this stage. If you can’t get reasonable form when moving the arms fairly slowly, when you have ample time to think about what you’re doing, then speeding the arms up is likely only going to make things even less optimal.

[Hammerer]

@Matt_Perks

I can do a length in 17/18 strokes without a silly amount of gliding, but I think it’s more like 20 if I’m “just swimming”.

If you can get that just swimming down to 17/18 for the same stroke rate, you are faster. My experience 17 at “race pace” for a middle/distance freestyler is about right, but it depends. I coached a decent junior triathlete, when I took over he was 5:10 / 400 and it was holding him back from the academy/super series. He was knocking out 24spl at a super high rate. Only ever got him to 21 but holding his sr to go 4:49, which was ok and he got sub 10 at the 800 for SS weekend. Dropping sr to lengthen stroke just didnt work for him and the high turnover just suited him. He was much better at OW tris due to the SR (we are talking in the 80s)
I give general ideas on here, but most of my girl triathletes are 19 or 20 for the fast ones (distance). A girl at swim club is 16. Shes a 17:59 1500 swimmer and is 22spl!

[Hammerer]

@stenard

If you can’t get reasonable form when moving the arms fairly slowly

Yer those times would have me going back to basics, floats, push and glides, catch and pull, rotation. Wonder if theres mobility issues also

[explorerJC]

@Matt_Perks

To what extent do you think 17-ish strokes per 25 m should be when you are really concentrating on dps v just trying to swim good form?

good form is great if it is taking you somewhere…poor form is also fine if it takes you someone and is not likely to lead to injury…

however, it would always beg the question “what could you do with better form?” and the coach and athlete must decide what the benefits would be weighted against the risks…

[G8zzaj]

Thanks for all the feedback guys, very helpful.

Here’s 3 vids from my last lesson and a still from the vid, looks like I arm pulling my elbow through and not getting ELV? I struggle with the feeling of reaching over a barrel or getting fingers to the bottom of the pool and don’t feel like I catch any water and sink a little when I try this.

[Hammerer]

You sit low in the water, try pushing down a bit more on the chest

Legs, right leg in particular, knee kick, try to keep the legs as straight as possible, there will be some knee flexion, but kick from the hips.

Right arm isn’t too bad, which is odd as that’s the breathing stroke, but you are pulling down on water, lifting head/legs dropping. Try to only put pressure on water when arm facing back. Left the elbow is dropping so you aren’t catching. From these videos, you aren’t rotating enough to the non breating side.
Hand exit is too late, you are pulling up with a palm up which is still pulling water, so affecting position in water. Try to keep hand in water only while palm os facing back.
Newtons 3rd law, every action has an equal and opposite reaction … so every movement of water that isnt directly back will cause the body to move in the opposite direction!

Head may be moving a bit too much to breathe, more rotation, and a still head should help.

I would try breathing every 3rd stroke in part of sets, this isnt usually a race specific pattern but may help you feel discrepancies. Try set of 4 * (4 * 50) breathe 3,5,7,normal . Count strokes. Think about using a front snorkel for some WU to see how it affects stroke count also.

@G8zzaj

I struggle with the feeling of reaching over a barrel or getting fingers to the bottom of the pool and don’t feel like I catch any water and sink a little when I try this.

Im not a fan of that term, can be confusing,
I sometimes explain, on extension rotate hand so palm is facing in to head a little, rotate arm down using elbow as the hinge, tryin not to put pressue on water until forearm and hand is facing back.

[G8zzaj]

Thank you for the detailed feedback Hammerer.

I actually breath to my left as I have some neck issues and struggled to get my breath to the right.

With the hand exit too late, am I looking to not go to full extension of the arm?

I’ve ordered a snorkel and that comes tomorrow so will practice with that.

So I need more rotation? Does this mean trying to stay on my side for longer as well?

[Hammerer]

@G8zzaj

I have some neck issues and struggled to get my breath to the right.

try to sort that out if you can, but might be a good test as you shouldn’t really use the neck much, its an old saying but imagine you are a pig on a spit, the head turns with the body rotation

@G8zzaj

am I looking to not go to full extension of the arm?

arm is fine, just the hand should stay fingers down as best as possible, the length will depend on mobility.

[Matt_Perks]

@Hammerer

If you can get that just swimming down to 17/18 for the same stroke rate, you are faster

At some point, I probably need to get someone to properly look at my technique. Stroke rate is not high, and it feels like I’m getting a decent catch, pull, and have a reasonable body position, but I guess any (or all) of those might be me kidding myself.

[Hammerer]

AC must read TT, always a well timed post. not sure I fully agree with all his figures, I’m guessing hes talking arm cycles not strokes and his sprinting seems high at the top end but otherwise it’s close, and his sentiments are good.

X

all starts from this comment, which is what we should all be doing, stroke counting every length

X

[explorerJC]

Not looked at vids, but briefly read H’s feedback.

Only thing I’d add or amend is extending breathing to 3 5 7. I tend to favour 3-2-2-3-2-2-3 etc patterns in developing athletes….

[pacha]

Not a follower so can’t see what he has copied off you.

Something about how slow Popov swam all the time?

[Hammerer]

@explorerJC

Only thing I’d add or amend is extending breathing to 3 5 7.

Yes thinking back, more novice swimmers, 7 can be too much and stroke becomes rushed, so usually do 5 max for younger ones, but yours looks good.

[Hammerer]

Here we go

@AC

Tip o’ the day:

All of your speed sets in the pool should be done with stroke counts.

I don’t do a 25m sprint, I do a 15 stroke sprint. If those 15 strokes don’t get me to the wall, I have instant feedback that I’m not holding water.

@AC

In short, the stroke rate changes depending on how fast we’re going.

In cycling, we hold a fairly constant “stroke rate” (cadence) and change our “stroke length” (gear) when we want to go faster. In swimming, we aim to do the opposite - keep stroke length fairly constant and change stroke rate (cadence) when we want to go faster.

In cycling terms, we ride a single-speed - keeping it in the same gear (length) and pedaling faster when we want to go faster.

So, the aim should be to hold a fairly constant stroke count per length irrespective of the speed. Some general guidelines on stroke count per length relative to height:

Height/25m*/50m

1.6m 18-23 // 40-51
1.7m 17-21 // 38-48
1.8m 16-20// 36-45
1.9m 15-19// 34-43

*Take an additional 1-2 off for a yd pool

Where you fall in the range will largely be determined by the “style” of the stroke, whether hip-driven (longer) or shoulder-driven (shorter) but once you find yours, it shouldn’t change much with speed, it should be pretty constant. This will lead to the rate changing with speed. At elite levels…

39-43 revs per minute for a 1500m swimmer, all the way up to…

56-67 revs per minute for a 50m swimmer!

Quite large differences in rate depending on the speed, but, for the best, the length doesn’t change much irrespective of the speed.

This… holding exactly the same stroke count at different speeds… is, IMO, one of the most important technical objectives of a good swim program.

[Doka]

My last 400m effort (Thursday) was 6:11 with a 26 average stroke count, would be interested to know how other TT’s stroke rates IRL for AOS. @Poet @fruit_thief @funkster ?

[Poet]

Is that per length?

For a 5:58 400m I did 21.625 strokes per length average, or 58 strokes per minute (ish)

At 200m for a 2:57, I’m at 21.25 strokes per length, which drops to 57 strokes per minute.

For a 1:25 100m, I’m down again to 20 strokes per length. Or 56 strokes per minutes.

I’m 187cm, UK11 shoe and my gloves are XL

@Doka - That’s a massive stroke rate, do you have two legs for that? If so, I’d expect you to be quite faster, with one leg - that’s bloody quick !!! I’m much much slower with a pull buoy. A fair bit of my speed is from my kick. Whether that’s just from a better body position, or propulsion, I don’t know. But I’m reasonably happy with where I am now

[APM]

I did 3 x 600m last week.

According to Garmin, I averaged 30 spm, so just under 13 strokes per length.

Thats not an anomaly, looking at other swims.