TSS, CTL, ATL and TSB

[stenard]

I’m still confused. You ran a HM at 295w, yet a run with NP of 281 gave IF of 1.13? That implies your rFTP is set at only 248w?

[Matthew_Spooner]

@joex

@Matthew_Spooner

As I ride to work 3 times a week, I get a base TSS of 400 per week,

How do you find commute riding stress to turbo training stress?

Iirc the theory is they’re the same, but I can accumulate ~700TSS weekly outside, but find ~400-450 indoor about my max.

Absolutely agree with you, I think there are a couple of factors, on a Turbo, with a fan facing an open window, I still sweat like mad, outdoors on the bike it is much easier to regulate temperature. Secondly on the Turbo, my AP and NP are very close, as there is no free wheeling downhill, while outside, even with a real focus on keeping power constant, there are lots of mini breaks as you coast downhill, stop for traffic lights or a junction. I also believe the training indoors is also more effective for building base fitness, while riding outdoors is more effective for technique and bike handling, so I do a combination, but now the weather is better, a lot more outside

[Matthew_Spooner]

I agree that not all TSS is equal, last week I did a 4 hour, 100km bike with 2500m climbing with an IF of 85%, NP 235W, AP178W which had a TSS of 266

On Sunday running a Marathon PB in 3h8m, with an IF of 92% had a TSS of 308

I felt fine after the bike ride, on Monday, I was significantly more tired after the run

[Hammerer]

Yep, I’m looking at it now. seems to be taking “default” setting which is 248 for some reason. WKO4 seems to set it up correctly though. maybe I need to double check tonight. but it could be that WKO4 and TP not syncing for run power. edit:- just resynced and the TSS is now 44…much better! although I’m so unfit now

[Jorgan]

@Matthew_Spooner

I also believe the training indoors is also more effective for building base fitness, while riding outdoors is more effective for technique and bike handling

It’s only ‘Base’ training indoors if you’re doing it at the appropriate intensity - which most people won’t. Most people do their intensity on a trainer, and their ‘Base miles’ outside. I for one do that, most of the time.

This assumes that by ‘Base’ we are talking about aerobic fitness building or maintenance.

[Matthew_Spooner]

@Jorgan

@Matthew_Spooner

I also believe the training indoors is also more effective for building base fitness, while riding outdoors is more effective for technique and bike handling

It’s only ‘Base’ training indoors if you’re doing it at the appropriate intensity - which most people won’t. Most people do their intensity on a trainer, and their ‘Base miles’ outside. I for one do that, most of the time.

This assumes that by ‘Base’ we are talking about aerobic fitness building or maintenance.

The benefit is more doing structured workouts, for example maintaining set power intervals.

Although not base building, I think I benefited from Races where you go as hard as possible for between 40 mins and 1h30 depending on distance, I think that this helps you to learn what level of intensity you can actually maintain. Combined with a brick, you can learn what the run feels like after different bike IF

[Poet]

@Matthew_Spooner

I think I benefited from Races where you go as hard as possible for between 40 mins and 1h30 depending on distance, I think that this helps you to learn what level of intensity you can actually maintain. Combined with a brick, you can learn what the run feels like after different bike IF

THIS. All of the way.
Practise and bricks all the way.

For me, the morning parkrun knocked off 10W from my FTP last weekend. I just couldn’t get up to 280W for the 25TT in the afternoon.
But, that was the plan!!!

What does a semi-tired TT look like?
The answer was bloody good!
I wasn’t wrecked at all after it and could’ve easily done a nice 4km at 4:30-4:45/km.

I’ve got two more proper rides before the 113.
Doing one at 78 and the other at 76. (IF)
The 78 will be “fresher” than the 76.
But I’ll have had a nice two week block before the 76.
Science/logic is saying the 76 should produce the same result as the 78, but with a lower HR bpm, lower RPE and faster brick run pace afterwards.

[Chriswim]

@JibberJim

Yes it does (your NP is reduced by less than the contribution from the extra time)? I don’t agree that 30 TSS is a one hour easy ride, I’d say that was 40-50 TSS, unless you really are not actually riding for much of it, and that in running terms would be the equivalent to a walk, how much run TSS do you get from a walk?

Yesterday I managed 2 TSS for the first 15 minutes riding to the race track.If TSS is accumulating even without pedalling, it can’t be too any great degree if I only get 2TSS for 88W AP?

(Yes that’s not good quality riding, but 4.5km floating across bike paths/intersections in evening traffic)

I’ll happily admit I’ve never looked into any of the maths, and be corrected. But it just doesn’t match my experience or make too much intuitive sense, so needs further explanation. Same with total TSS decreasing, when you can’t have negative TSS, so surely they continue to accumulate (apparently even without doing anything)?

@JibberJim

personally think if it is possible that 60 minutes of actual riding is possible to realistically only 30 TSS, your FTP is either very high (ie you’re a pro) or over-stated - there’s a sort of minimum intensity it’s possible to ride at and for most, it’s higher than that.

60m at 55% = 30TSS. Yes that’s super easy, but on a flat ride that should be doable to actually cruise along at for all but beginners, it’s a bit exaggatory to suggest you’d need to be pro to have that as your minimum level? It’s 180W for me, definitely rideable.

[JibberJim]

@Chriswim

Yesterday I managed 2 TSS for the first 15 minutes riding to the race track.If TSS is accumulating even without pedalling, it can’t be too any great degree if I only get 2TSS for 88W AP

The problem is that NP is not reduced to make up for the extra duration, if the same “lap” - had been at the end it would’ve been more - although I actually suspect that graph doesn’t sum to the same as the TSS for the total ride - so you wouldn’t’ve seen it, but TSS doesn’t let you split workouts by laps in that way and still have the overall.

@Chriswim

it’s a bit exaggatory to suggest you’d need to be pro to have that as your minimum level? It’s 180W for me, definitely rideable.

Slightly, although coggans charts has you at close to domestic pro doesn’t it? But it also requires conditions where you can ride steadily, so maybe on a turbo and maybe where you are, but not UK conditions, and not people carrying a bit of extra weight (where minimum powers up hills are higher). I’ve managed to slightly derail the comments about inflating the 5-6 hour ride, with the short durations where it’s a different sort of minimum.

[Jorgan]

Have we discussed that calling CTL ‘Fitness’ is misguiding (imho). You certainly want to take your foot off the gas for a week or two after hitting your peak CTL and an ‘A Race’. It’s how much load (stress) your body is under at any one time.

Or has TP stopped using ‘fitness’ against that number? (not used since 2019)

[gingerbongo]

@Jorgan

Have we discussed that calling CTL ‘Fitness’ is misguiding (imho). You certainly want to take your foot off the gas for a week or two after hitting your peak CTL and an ‘A Race’. It’s how much load (stress) your body is under at any one time.

Yeah exactly that, but intervals.icu still use the term fitness.

According to my fitness graph, i’m now back down at the level i was in late May/early June. I don’t think 12 days of sitting on my ever growing ass has quite removed 2.5 months of heavy (for me) training and thus fitness just yet!

[Hammerer]

I probably mentioned before about the IMJ guy who stopped swimming as it was causing “detraining” so he ran more as TSS was higher