@jaylen84 @Matthew_Spooner @Jorgan @Memphisraines @pacha
Many thanks to you all for your thoughtful replies. Great example of why I still love this place after a decade. Can’t think of many other places where people with real knowledge and experience would be prepared to provide such helpful feedback.
@Jorgan , yours is a position I’d definitely be wanting to emulate and one which I think I should be able to manage on the bike I‘m on (nice paint job on the speed concept btw). I’m starting to think it’s not the frame size that is the problem but my position on it. Time to set up the turbo and the iphone to do some experimenting with the position. – the wife is brimming with excitement and enthusiasm at the prospect!
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Got it resprayed the start of last year, at a local body shop. Porsche Miami Blue 
I spent ages looking at colour charts; then he went and got a pot and swirled it under my nose and said “I’ve got this left over from a retro Porsche project”… to which I immediately bit!
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It’s a bit of a frustrating black art! If you’re a pro and have unlimited time and resources etc then you can really optimise - wind tunnel, power, heart rate, comfort, velodrome testing, crank lengths etc.
You didn’t look bad in your original position but the helmet was the most obvious one.
I’m going through a few tweaks myself - lowered the saddle a bit, a longer aero stem, aero computer mount, arm pads closer together.
It seems that there’s a big trend now for shorter cranks, which opens up the hip angle. I’d love to experiment, but that’s new cranks and a new stages power meter… £££
It seems also, and this makes sense, that some are moving towards a more stretched out position with arm pads further forwards (if they have the core strength to hold it) which means instead of arms vertical they are angled, which is (kind of) analogous to a vertical bus windscreen versus a sleek, angled modern car windscreen - obvious which is more aero…
Seb Kienle is a bit of a boffin about gear and position etc and he has gone for a stretched out position. It may also help to open up the chest and reduce heart rate, but I’m speculating…
I’ll try a post a few of my own photos of before and after up here when I’ve got the “after” sorted. In the meantime, a couple attached of turtling and non turtling - an obvious difference.
That said, the turtling photo is maybe too deep a turtle, harder to hold and I could probably turtle less for no losses as long as the helmet doesn’t go above the highest point of my back.
I always try to get most aero when the speed is high, like on a long straight (on a UK descent you’re not going to be aero, you’re hanging onto the brakes for dear life!) so I’ll turtle like crazy and shrug nice and tight and you maximise your speed there. Similarly I’ll get very aero in a strong headwind because then even if you’re only doing 12mph your “effective” speed through the air is higher as it depends on the wind speed… If you’re dragging on a false flat etc at 15-18mph then holding a super aero position is less important so I’ll maybe lift my head a bit, open out the shoulders, move around because it’s not as important - drag increases with the square of speed.
@Jorgan you look superb on that bike - man and machine as one 
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Don’t post that first picture on the UK Time Trialling facebook page. You’ll be lynched for head down riding!! 
They’ll say you’re about to have a crash at any moment…I’m pretty sure they’d like zwift to introduce some form of camera tracking of the rider, and if you adopt this position even on the turbo then you should crash in zwift 
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Glad it wasn’t just me who thought that.
Back in 2019 I did the Sundowner tri (that was quite good btw). Early on in the bike I spent a few minutes playing back and forth with a guy on P5 who had a pretty extreme head down position. He seemed determined to make sure he stayed ahead of me and after a while I let him go, eased up and watched him head up the road. A few minutes later I heard the unmistakable sound of carbon clattering across the asphalt. That same rider had ridden straight into the back of an unsuspecting guy out riding his mountain bike. Fortunately, the guy on the mountain bike seemed to have escaped relatively unscathed (although he must have got a pretty horrible shock) but the guy on the P5 was in a pretty bad way.
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…and he probably drove an X5 with the same disposition 
Had a decent (at least I tried) to look for papers on pedalliing technique itself. It’s interesting as they often focus on efficiency and not effectivity of the technique. In short it seems that the better cyclist you are the more effective your pedal technique is, shocking revelation. The older Coyle study does show the better you are the more you apply at 3 o’clock and the area around there. Trying to pull through the lower dead spot seems to improve efficiency for a given workload but ultimately doesn’t move the bike faster and as the demands increase the more you apply power in that 2-4 o’clock range. Also, one interesting study talks about ‘ankling’ and it seems to improve power transfer but interestingly they don’t mean the ankle but the pedal changing angle 15 degrees from horizontal. Yet articles refer to it but then talk about moving the ankle in a manner the study doesn’t.
It seems consciously trying to change how you pedal doesn’t make you better at moving a bike forward. How you pedal and cadence you chose is seemingly the most effective for you at that point in time based on fitness, effort and fatigue.
The Pedaling Technique of Elite Endurance Cyclists
relationship between cadence, pedalling technique and gross efficiency
Cadence and Workload Effects on Pedaling Technique of Well-Trained Cyclists
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There’s some serious maths going on there!
I’m sure I’ve read that increasing the pulling phase by recruiting the glutes and hamstrings does increase the power through the pedals, but also increases the over all load on the body, meaning it’s not strictly more efficient!
It would be hip flexors and a bit of hammys that would pull as the glutes extend the hip (as do the hamstrings). Pretty sure it is in one those somewhere but it doesn’t help except at very low cadence and high torque iirc. In one of those studies on elites, they showed that at the real high loads there was an increase in the negative effect of the passive up phase of the cycle but it was so low to be insignificant, practically not just statisically.
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Right… spent most of yesterday playing round with about 30 different variations on my position (maybe that’s why I look so miserable in the pictures) but ended up coming back to pretty much where I was before - albeit with slightly tilted pads and arms.
Two sets of photos here. The first with tilted pads and bars and the second putting my sons X Box controller under my hands. I’m thinking of getting some bars with a steeper bend and the X box controller hopefully replicates this to some extent.
I’m one of those short legs long torso people so I’m not sure I’ll ever have an aesthetically nice looking position. 170mm cranks btw
Well Spotted Matthew Spooner. This issue with my heel has been raised at every bike fit I’ve had. It’s a technique thing rather than a saddle height thing. No matter how low I put my saddle my heel prefers to be slightly raised – not really sure why – it’s the same on my road bike too.
I think the biggest difference to the position (compared with those earlier pictures from Barcelona) is the fact that I’m holding my head in a better position. Still need a helmet that works better with the shape of my back but that should be easily done. Any suggestions welcome by the way.
This is the critique my position/bike/thighs thread so any further suggestions on position definitely welcome and encouraged.
As regards the bike this is the third tri bike I’ve had. I had the original Canyon Speedmax CF in small, then the second Speedmax CF in medium and now this P3 (54). Whatever bike I’ve been riding I always feel as though I need the bike to be bigger. Maybe it’s a Freudian thing? – seriously though – I’ve been obsessed by the idea that I might need a 56 rather than this 54. Does anyone else think I ned to go bigger based on these photos?
Finally as regards the thighs… I’m normally about 4-5kg lighter when I race so that tri suit certainly felt a bit snug! With no events to speak of this year I’ve allowed the leg hair to thrive so that’s probably an additional 1kg right there.
In hindsight I wished I’d set the camera up to show more of the living room. I could do with @Poet casting his eye over the décor too.
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that wheel on trainer, in the living room, on cream carpet, looks like a rubber skid mark disaster waiting to happen!
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@Mr-me is there any way you could borrow someone’s 56 or a longer framed bike to try out? Your position doesn’t look bad but (if you’re strong enough to hold) a stretched out position would allow you to rotate round the saddle more and get your head more in line with your body.
that was the first thing I spotted to. Is he even married?!
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I’ve also got pointy toes/high heels. I’ve tried lowering my saddle and my heel still stays high. So the conventional “lock out your leg and your heel should be on the pedal spindle” doesn’t really apply because that’s more for people without high heels. With a high heel, I can have a slightly higher saddle. So if I was you I’d try lifting the saddle 2cm. Your knee (to my non expert eye) looks a bit too bent at the top of the pedal stroke, and it still looks quite scrunched up at the 3pm power phase position. I’d lift the saddle which will automatically help to lower your head, and I’d also try to stretch out more on the bars, whether by moving arm pads and aero bars forwards or with a longer stem. For visual/trial purposes you could get your elbow bones on the front half of the pads and hands beyond the bar ends and photograph that and see how it looks.
Good advice, however, make sure that someone looks at your from behind to make sure you are not rolling you hips from side to side… if so the saddle is definately too high
Wrong Forum.
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And beautifully shaved legs
I also have short legs / long torso. I started using a TT bike fairly recently and have the same issue with wondering if I need a larger frame because I feel a little hunched up. On the other hand my seat post isn’t that high, and yours looks really quite low. If you had a larger frame would your seat post not need to be pretty much slammed? And would a larger frame not raise your bars if they are already as low as possible on your current frame? I think my stem is 100mm or 110mm and I’m wondering about trying 130mm but I’m unsure at what point the handling gets to be a problem. There seem to be plenty of people online saying 130mm is fine - not worse at all - but then a few others claiming that’s death on a stick on a TT bike. Only one way to find out I guess. The other thing I need to try is moving my pads further apart as I think that might loosen my shoulders and allow me to get flatter. Maybe we’re just built for swimming!