What is the purpose of the long run that leaves you hobbling?
Indeed it does, but the shoes have reduced the training load so is there the same value in those back to back sessions?
To make the point clear, i am a fan of training in the equipment you will be using to race, particularly if you struggle to adapt…but i am thinking out loud as to the benefit or limitations of training in these shoes…
yep, time to ban those tri bars…
I said principle.
You know what I mean 
MAYBE “hobbling” was over-egging it.
Any long run, I do mine as 9 minutes run, 1 minute walk and do about 5:15/km versus a HM race pace of 3:49/km; so I am not going “fast” or “steady” at all.
However, I can still feel that long run afterwards and walking is laboured.
Would this not fall into the category of Progressive Overload.
I’m not going to feel fresh every morning following a hard or long workout.
I guess im pretty much the opposite. I pretty much only use my vaporfly NEXT% for races. The only reason I ran a few training runs in the Alphafly was that I was pretty confident I was going to return them anyway (which I did).
I save the alphaflys as Raceday shoes as they are as light as anything else ive got (save some track spikes), are comfy to run in at all distances and in favour of the less fatigue claim I think this where the benefit comes in from the shoes. I dont think the shoes magically make you run quickly which is why I dont think they provide much benefit for just about any event under an hour. They MIGHT still provide benefits at 5/10k IMO but at this point you are talking a handful of seconds for the faster runners so its pretty much in the noise for any particular race, though admittedly if its the difference between a 14:59 and a 15:01 5k I guess those seconds are important😁
in training I stick to shoes that I am are a bit harder wearing but also provide variety to my running as well as I think the slightly different shoes/foot position, muscle activation helps provide variety and in my mind prevents overload of specific muscles/prevents other muscles becoming weak as they are less used in shoe a vs b.
For my general running ill use a Hoka Arahi and a New Balance FuelCell Propel for everything easy and some longer session that have MP or Threshold intervals. I also have a pegasus 36 I picked up cheap but they aren’t my favourite shoe. Logic here is harder wearing shoes, more protection when running on unpaved areas from things like stones and sharp objects as well as cushioning that dont leave my feet quite as battered as a light weight shoe
For anything with intervals Ill go for one of my lightweight shoes such as Hoka Tracer. Its quite a firm shoe so can leave my feet a bit tender but I like the simple low drop and lightweight of the shoe as allows me to focus on achieving higher speed and better leg turnover than would be possible in a heavier shoe. Yes I could use a regular trainer that I guess would provide benefit of a little more resistance but I think getting my body used to the higher speeds and turnover is a better benefit as if im suddenly asking my legs to go 190 SPM in a race when they’ve maxed at 180 in training I dont think it copes as well and think the specificity of leg turn over is the important bit. I like the tracer but im also keen to try the NB FuelCell Rebel as I really like the propel.
This is before you add the variety from any trail running as well which I use Hoka Speedgoats and Inov-8 200 for races:)
Then on Raceday I pull out the NEXT%. The variety in my training I think means adaptability is no issue. They are as light as my Tracer’s but how I see it is if you are running a marathon you have a battery that (hopefully) starts at 100% and the objective is to meter it out over the event to finishing with 0%. In a longer event like a marathon the vaporfly means you get 20 miles with still 30% or so left which means you can push hard where as a less efficient shoe means you are down below 20% and still have the same distance to go so you slow down to get the same energy, or conversely, run slower for the first 20 miles so you’ve got 40% to depend on for a push over the last 6 miles.
Over shorter events it feels like to me you simply dont have the time to make these efficiency improvements pay off as you cant go so much harder in the first 4k of a 5k that you’re reaching the last km as if its the last 500 m in a different shoe if that makes sense.
In terms of if you were to do this in training it makes sense to me that if you were to do say 100 km week with 80% of the perfect results, the cumulative effect would be more than doing the long run at 100% (by using a harder to run in shoe), missing the next session because you’re knackered and then the last set of sessions as 75% because you are still recovering. Of course its anecdotal but my experience is:
2017 in Hoka Tracers:
80 kg
5k PB 16:50 at Rother Valley parkrun (4th place)
HM: 1:18:20 (Flat but windy course 5th place)
2020:
in Vaporfly NEXT%
76 kg
5k PB 16:20 (Virtual champs running on own)
HM: 1:12:46 (Cheshire half 21st)
the near 6 minute improvement is clearly a much bigger improvement than my 5k and I think this is slightly a shoe increase but most fitness and weight. Fitness and weight also played in a part in the 5k improvement but I dont think the shoe contributed much if anything!
As someone who is 80kg and looking for a <17 minute 5km next year, this makes me very happy indeed!
I always feel self conscious when I’m toeing the start line at the front and am noticeably “larger” than the whippets around me 
I’m 82kg and sub-17 is a pipe dream for me 
I was 83 kg before I left for Berlin Marathon 2019 and 82 kg when I got back. Ran 2:37 so stopped f*cking around;)
Odd, you run way quicker than I do.
I’ve got a 70kg 17:07 to my name, but my HM time was 1:22 then.
My HM time is now 1:20, so with some decent speed sessions, I reckon I might be able to get close…
One speed wonder innit
Stop biting on @explorerJC’s posts. He’s not having to do any of the work
Indeed, but if using the shoe means that you are not challenging your physiology in the same way, where is the advantage in using the shoe for training?
for sure…but if we consider that you need that stress your physiology for adaptations to take place, will this not necessitate extra training sessions to achieve the same progression?
do you though?
You are still stressing the body by running long distances, just not over-loading it or bashing it about.
If we need to stress our physiology for these adaptations to take place, why don’t we go out and do 20 miles at marathon pace in training? Surely that’s a good amount of stress to be applied?
We don’t do that, as we know we will be utterly broken and it’s a pretty stupid thing to do if you want to train at any meaningful level in the next 4-5 days.
From what @Stenard has said, he wasn’t a mess after his marathon in the Next%, so do you really need to stress your physiology so much for those adaptations to take place?
to be fair though Tom - for someone aiming for low 2.30 marathons, 16.50 is pretty slow for a 5km!
I know, i was gutted when parkrun was put on hol again. I thought I might have had a crack at a sub-16 finally. By the time it starts again I’ll be fat again😂
If you’ve got a 1:20HM in the bag then sub 17 is definitely on the cards. Looking back at my records as I came down to 1:20 flat at the same time I was doing a lumpy 5k road race series in around 16:45 to 16:55. It did require specific speed sessions to do that (I found that the track helped a lot with pace judgement) but you get the point
if the shoe is doing part of the work, the body is not being stressed to do that work…
which is the advantage the shoe gives you…meaning with the shoe you are faster, not more fit…
Which means train in the slowest, heaviest shoe possible and then switch to the speedy ones for racing. Logically it makes sense, however if the shoes help you feel fresher the day after a run and you can keep more consistency and quality because of them then surely that’s a good thing.