It’s not about debating really, but it is about personal experience. I’d tried loads of different solutions (supplements and other things) for calf cramps and using PH1500 sorted me right out almost instantly. So you are going to struggle to turn me away from persisting with what works.
I thought scientists didn’t even understand what truly causes cramping anyway, so quite how they’d then be able to say categorically whether or not something can help with it, I’m not sure. So it doesn’t surprise me there’s no scientific evidence supporting electrolytes
This is one of the problems with those big studies - anything which only works for some people, simply won’t be found, because it doesn’t work for others, in small trials you’ll end up with lots having no results (as it works for nearly no-one) or amazing results (if a disproportionate few end up in the study), but those massive randomised controlled studies - would mostly say it doesn;t, 'cos it only works for some.
Saw an analogy recently about “car doesn’t go”, we tried a randomised control study of all the possible fixes (fill with petrol, charge battery, inflate tyres, etc. etc.) and none of the methods managed to get the car going in more than 10% of cars - which is obvious when you think of it like that, but with so many health things, it’s always assumed that there’s one problem, and one solution.
I’m even more convinced now that anything that isn’t understood - experiment on yourself, and if it works, it works, doesn’t matter why.
If you don’t know how “it” works, you basically don’t know what the “it” is at all.
You merely have some kind of weak correlation - you simply haven’t determined cause and effect - you are the proud owner of your own personal superstition.
Similar to @stenard , for over 30 years I’d been cramping over any event > 2 hours, running, cycling and tri. Experimented with stretching, racing at a lower volume than training, and all sorts of other things.
Always so annoying (and embarrassing) when finishing an event and hobbling in/ slow cycling due to cramps. Had the energy, had the mental capacity, it was just that muscles were like solid blocks of stone despite trying to stretch. So many people used to file past me during the last few miles as I was on a go slow.
All changed during tri X ironman in 2019 when I took Saltstick fast chews, 4 every hour. That was the first time I think that I’d not cramped up. A revalation. In the head, who knows, but it worked for me after decades of go slow duing the last few hours of any event.
I use Saltsticks for long events too. I used to cramp just in my right quad and Saltsticks seemed to cure it - by that I mean I didn’t change anything else. I’m also a very salty sweater.
Nope, just about the absolutely simplest “disease” in medicine, Scurvy, was cured by that, and it was cured in ancient history by knowing what to eat, over a thousand years later, actual medical trials were done, and still got it wrong. And then the scientists still kept saying the anecdotes were wrong, lemons were demanded by the admirals, against the scientists advice despite them doing actual science on it 50 years before. Over the next 150 years, scientists kept coming up with different reasons for scurvy, and people kept dieing rather than eating some lemons, 'cos the scientists said other stuff. Eventually they worked it out, but 200 years after the first scientific trials which actually demonstrated the effect.
And scurvy is an utterly trivial disease, there’s one cause in everyone, the symptoms are pretty obvious.
Most medical things aren’t like that - there’s not one cause of headaches, or obesity, or cramps, and there’s no scientific solution to these problems - so you can’t follow the science, what do you do, not bother looking for a solution?
To me not self experimenting on things that have worked for other people would be like the 19th century folk going “science hasn’t told us why to eat some lemons when sailing, so I’m not going to”.
And of course, it doesn’t matter if you know why something works - just having it work is what helps.
But you’re saying “salt intake benefits cramps is bullshit because science hasn’t supported it”.
What I’m saying is “science doesn’t even understand what cramps actually really are yet, and their underlying cause, so how on earth can you expect science to be able to validate whether a solution is scientifically supportable”.
Jim’s car analogy is a good one. If cramps manifest themselves in people for a whole host of reasons, rather than one single reason, then it’s entirely scientifically plausible that different solutions will work depending on the underlying cause
Just realised there may of course be one cause, but we don’t know it - although I don’t think it’s controversial to suggest that headaches have more than one cause (brain tumour and beer at least)
Nutrition “science” is a joke. If n=1 personal anecdotes are personal superstition, then nutrition science is akin to collective delusion. I regard both with enormous scepticism personally.
Ultimately placebos are powerful medicine so the personal belief is as important as the science in terms of on the day performance much if the time.
Which is also a rejection of the scientific method.
You could say this about ESP and holistic medicine, because that’s what those charlatans say too.
When it comes to salt, the medical science has found that chronically low level of salt cause cramping among other things, what the pseudoscience has said is anyone who gets cramp need to buy these salt tablets. What the sports science has said is - you’re all cramping because your working harder/longer than you’re capable.
Jeukendrup doesn’t work for Maurten, don’t think he ever has. He has worked for GSK in the past but not currently.
There’s plenty of independent sports nutrition research.
Absolutely. I saw this regularly when working as an osteopath. A cramp related study shows this to great effect. The pickle juice one where subjects exercised until they cramped and drinking pickle juice relieved the cramp within seconds. So fast infact that the juice may have just about entered the stomach nevermined the bloodstream. Next thing you know people are using pickle juice.
I used to get cramp in my calfs or quads quite badly when I ran off the bike. Then one day, it just suddenly stopped. I have no idea why & touch wood, I never get cramp now.
Say I had also started taking some sort of supplement at the same time as the cramp stopped, I expect I’d now be 100% convinced that the supplement was the reason.
And why not. It would make perfect sense to go on taking the supplement in that case - there was a problem, did thing A, problem got better, so keep doing thing A. In reality, in my case, doing thing A was not necessary- but had I done thing A, I would have no way of knowing that.
biotin is vitamin B7 and the rep said it’s good for hair, maybe I should try some, cheeky so and so. I had a quick glance at the info on the back and it looked like each gummy contained 16.667% of the recommended daily dose. They taste a bit like Haribo, so I knocked back a handful.
on closer inspection I’m a little concerned that each gummy might actually contain 16667% of the RDA. No ill effects so far, let’s see what the next full moon brings though as I may yet look like teen wolf
If the internet is to be believed, it’s only “good for hair” if you have an (undetectable) deficiency that’s causing thin hair.
The perfect Hope product then.
But like all medical things, a deficiency may cause a negative effect, but an oversupply may also be negative or even ineffectual. You end up paying just to have expensive pee.
